Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724 
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 26, 2018 12:09:29 GMT
The major issue is that he gets the stone aura but none of the other cool stuff the elder provides.
+2 armour is amazing, but so are the other stone benefits.
Can I suggest he be allowed to take a Stone UA as a caster attachment.
So you lose the awesome runebearer but it would make him consider playing in Storm of the north.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 26, 2018 12:14:41 GMT
I just take a stone with him all the time anyways.  |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 26, 2018 13:19:54 GMT
I just take a stone with him all the time anyways. At which point it's not really a very good ability.
Surely the whole point is that you make a troll caster that doesn't need the stone.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 26, 2018 13:27:59 GMT
Eh. Maybe? I kind of like the ability to have the ARM buff be more widely applicable when necessary but have the stone be able to toddle off and do other things as well. I mean, he's ALWAYS been that way, so I don't know any other way, maybe no stone at all is better, but, I'm not convinced that's true. You'd have to get him REAL close to apply some of the buffs you might need, and I'd rather not have him up there. Send Replaceable Grunt #2 instead and let him die in a blaze of glory instead of putting Madrak3 in potential peril. There's an awful lot killers out there these days......
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 26, 2018 14:20:52 GMT
It would be great if he could give carapace only to lights as a Field Marshal. Would give us a reason to play them then. On the Axer, Bouncer and even the Slag? Notsomuch. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 26, 2018 14:28:03 GMT
I'd overhaul him more. He is a cool caster and i like the intention to see him as protector, but They failed in design imho. As mentioned he is always furystarved. What i could see: Change aura to spend 1 to be active in his cmd or passive and always on in 4" + nummer of fury. Change reload to rof2 In order to buff lights, give him fieldmarshall light warbeast [gang fighter] Change feat entirely. Dunno how but it sucks atm. Steady, maybe dmg/attk buff. Maybe taking dmg on madrak to prevent dmg? Autoheal at end of round? Love how They improved mad1, would love to bring #3 back to table I see what you mean, but the only thing here I really agree with is ROF 2 instead of Reload. That would even free up some room on his second page for the new additions. I think that and Attuned Spirit: Light Warbeast are enough in terms of fury management. Too often I see players wanting to not just mitigate the natural weaknesses of a given model but eliminate them, even when that's not really wise. It's like in CID when a model has a corpse collection mechanic and people want it to start the game full of tokens and stay full at all times. Then what's the point of having that mechanic at all? |
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Post by ghoulio on Sept 26, 2018 14:34:20 GMT
It seems to me the intention is to make him a mixed arms caster (lots of BG spells, pure infantry feat). Also it seems like most of his spells are there to compensate for the fact he probably wont be taking the Elders from the stone unit. So these would be my suggested changes:
1)Adding a field marshal for lights: To help make him more of a light warbeast caster/mixed arms caster I agree he needs something. I would maybe give him gang fighter: light warbeast or do the Sorcha 3 route and give his light warbeasts flank: troll warrior model. The nice thing about flank is it means you really wouldnt need a mauler in the list (although it obviously wouldnt hurt) plus it would really push the combined arms aspect of his kit.
2)His abilities: Overall I actually love his abilities. I think having shield guard on your ARM 20 caster is great as is righteous vengeance. The krielstone idea is super original and cool...but, my only gripe is how his stone aura is actually used. When I first heard about it my only thought was "PLEASE dont let it function exactly as the krielstone unit!". The reason for that is because I find if you want to use that ability...you cant do anything else. It really is not fun or interesting at all to use. It's such a cool idea too. If I were to change it I would make it so you just pay 1 fury to activate it, then it goes off his command. That way you can actually do something else that turn.
3) Give him ROF 2 instead of reload 1. Please
4) Spell list: I really like Rebuke. Soothing song would be really good if he does get more of a light warbeast focus and I think spell piercer is a must if it's assumed he wont be taking a stone. That leaves fortune. I think instead of fortune he should have sort of damage buff like ignite to compensate for not having a stone (could also make up some unique +2 damage buff spell that is more earth magic based). The times I played him my biggest issue was the lack of damage output. Doing the +2 damage would put him right between Madrak 1 (no damage buffs) and Madrak 2 (blood fury) in terms of damage output.
5) Lastly...his feat: I would say his current feat is by far my least fave feat in the game. It's incredibly dicey which makes it very unreliable. Plus it only effects half your army and lastly, it's insanely easy to get around (so much stuff avoids tough like band of brothers, mortality, snipers, etc). Honestly, this one I have no idea. Madrak 1s is a control feat, Madrak 2 is a purely offensive feat, so maybe make Madrak 3s a defensive feat? An arm buff with no knock down, maybe include hyper agressive on beasts. I dont know haha.
6) I lied...double lastly: please just bring out his character lights and make them a light warbeast unit. Trolls have so few beasts, especially character beasts. Menoth has almost as many character Jacks as we have Character and Heavy Warbeats...COMBINED haha.
My hope is he is included in the next CID as he is the only caster I think REALLY needs help.
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Post by disgruntledwargamer on Sept 26, 2018 16:16:51 GMT
I just take a stone with him all the time anyways. At which point it's not really a very good ability.
Surely the whole point is that you make a troll caster that doesn't need the stone.
It isn't that he doesn't need the stone. Think of his ability in terms of how he has used Kriel Warriors in the past. In his Madrak2 incarnation, he uses them as ablative armor. It was certain death to stand with him in the past, but now a warrior might live! Madrak3 means having potentially two bubbles of +2 ARM, which means spreading way out on scenaio. On one flank, Madrak3 and spellpiercer and ARM +2 warriors or champs. On the other flank, the stone, spirit chaser, and warders with champs. Maybe fenns instead. Or cav. Doesn't matter. No incorporeal getting through that army! Regardless of how midline his feat is, Madrak3 in Boh has potential to fight the cryx dilemma (tool for slayers or ghosts or pirates?) as well as the upcoming skorne dilemma (build for winds with turtles or incorp immortals?) because the lost can potentially handle both threats. Like it was said earlier, Madrak3 is an answers guy, but with inherent weaknesses. And outside of changing the feat or giving him the ability to gain fury mid-turn, there aren't too many ways that this guy can be improved upon without breaking the model (in either direction). I played this guy. But it was mostly before Northkin, and I had trouble mainly because of the first turn power the stone thing. Also, my local meta shifted to battle engine madness that summer,and champs were hard to deliver to hit the engines. But now? I think he has potential. The plan: Spread out into two bricks. Beasts central. Force opponents to direct fire in one area or another, or weaken their damage potential by also spreading out. The advantage goes to trolls who basically have two small armies on the field. This can be done in BoH or KC very effectively, maybe SotN (I havent played him there) and to a limited extent PoD with Runeshapers (pretend the shapers are less effective champs or warders). Once in the zone, feat for no KD. The tough and move is good for taking ranged hits. Keep that grievous wounds shot off your important dudes with Madrak's shield, or Warders or Bouncers. My point is, we often over focus on the weaknesses while missing a model's strenghts, and a model like Madrak3 frequently gets written off as unplayable until CID because of that bias. |
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Post by chainsawx on Sept 26, 2018 16:48:25 GMT
6) I lied...double lastly: please just bring out his character lights and make them a light warbeast unit. Trolls have so few beasts, especially character beasts. Menoth has almost as many character Jacks as we have Character and Heavy Warbeats...COMBINED haha. We actually have a ton of warbeasts. They're just all lights. The problem with them is they are so specialized or overcosted that most don't get played. I really wish they'd at least revisit their animi (making them not all self only is a good start) so they can see more play. As far as heavies go, I feel like there's only so many variations of "big troll that punches things" they can do. Especially since they released one pretty recently (Brawler) and people don't really even use it. I think our stable of heavy warbeasts is pretty good all things considered. It could be much worse. Legion has a bajillion heavies and they don't use most of them. That said, a character light warbeast unit sounds AWESOME. |
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 26, 2018 17:10:06 GMT
(assuming it's Madrak's Axer/Impaler) Can we get a rule called "Aggressive Teamwork" where if one kills something the other gets to move 3 inches (I'll take more, but 3 seemed reasonable)  |
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Post by jherb5000 on Sept 26, 2018 18:51:11 GMT
Yea, we wanted a reach heavy in a world where troll animi was rng 6. Without all the cool shenanigans we could pull off with animi and spells there is no need for most beasts outside mauler, EBDT, Bomber, axer. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 27, 2018 0:02:40 GMT
(assuming it's Madrak's Axer/Impaler) Can we get a rule called "Aggressive Teamwork" where if one kills something the other gets to move 3 inches (I'll take more, but 3 seemed reasonable) :) Madrak 2 has Warpath, so that would be too much. I think they could possibly be two separate warbeasts but a package deal for 20 points. They could have Flank with each other but if Madrak 3 got that Gang Fighter FM those could stack with the right positioning. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 27, 2018 0:43:50 GMT
ghoulio A Field Marshal that gives Gang Fighter to light warbeasts is a better idea than Veteran Leader for them. That covers his CTRL area as opposed to just his CMD, it doesn't compete with the Hooch Hauler's Vet Leader: Northkin, and it pushes him more toward the combined arms niche that we don't have covered as well as I would like. That also nicely parallels Charge of the Trolls from the Chronicler. So here is an updated list of the changes that I would like to see: Add Stay Death, Add FM: Gang Fighter and Attuned Spirit both limited to light warbeasts, change Reload 1 to ROF 2, change feat to Steady and Parry for all FF plus super-tough for FF warriors. If the super-tough portion of the feat proves to be too much with Steady and Stay Death, we can replace that clause with something else or just scrap it. That is actually the one thing I'm least sure of. But yeah, the biggest problem with Madrak 3, as it stands now, is actually his feat. It's just so swingy, unreliable and random that it frankly is unfair to both players. I've had games where it literally did absolutely nothing and I've had some when it was just bonkers. Granted, I had a full unit of Warders in the mix, but I once absorbed literally more than 30 ranged attacks ranging in POW from 13 to 16 with minimal losses. That alone ended the game because my opponent had committed heavily and could not get his caster away from Madrak, who probably should have been dead.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 27, 2018 1:31:15 GMT
(assuming it's Madrak's Axer/Impaler) Can we get a rule called "Aggressive Teamwork" where if one kills something the other gets to move 3 inches (I'll take more, but 3 seemed reasonable) Madrak 2 has Warpath, so that would be too much. I think they could possibly be two separate warbeasts but a package deal for 20 points. They could have Flank with each other but if Madrak 3 got that Gang Fighter FM those could stack with the right positioning. Is it? I mean this all stupid speculation that goes nowhere anyways, but, is the potential for 6 inches of movement on light beasts that cost 20 points of your list really that over the top? With conditions even (the destruction of an enemy model by the other). At that level only one will get a threat range extension since someone has to go first, the other will simply be a reposition at best, and you could limit it to activation so only one gets to use it on any given turn. The impaler won't have farstrike, the axer won't have rush, so weaker animi can be used to balance strong inter-model play. And 20 points, that ain't cheap. Especially if you HAVE to take them as a unit. Sorry for the derail, it just really intrigues me. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 27, 2018 1:55:24 GMT
I just take a stone with him all the time anyways. At which point it's not really a very good ability.
Surely the whole point is that you make a troll caster that doesn't need the stone.
When it comes down to it, no, he isn't actually going to make it into tournaments over the usual suspects unless you can get good use out of his core feature, and that is Protective Aura. He was hurt by PP's refusal to set the aura to a fixed radius, but that just wasn't going to fly. By definition, you must either: A) Run him without the stone, and get enough use out of the points he freed up to make it worthwhile, or B) Run him with the stone but still get enough use out of it and the Elder to make that worthwhile That's just basic logic, I know, but let's not overlook it. I know from experience that both strategies are quite doable. For A) we have lots of other options in the 9 to 12 point range. The thing is if you want to spend those points on something else, then that is almost certainly more offense. Early in Mk3, I built a list and realized that I'd spent so many points trying to protect my Mauler that I might as well just spend a few more for a second Mauler instead. When I saw gdnerd Doomy 2 list the lesson was confirmed and it stuck. It's not that we're even limited to that specific point cost range; we can stretch it a bit and compare two units of Fire Eaters, or one full unit of Raiders. Either can get a lot of work done and they both have a habit of leaving the KSB aura... but they still want the aura, if only for the potential of +1 SPD from the Elder. I don't think I can justify building a Northkin list without him. So we can safely remove the entire theme from consideration for a stoneless strategy. Similarly, unless that MK + light trolls list turns out to be much better than I think it is, I don't think we can play POD without the Krielstone either. Not only is it good to have at least one unit for Mirage and Spread the Net, but that way we can spread the warbeasts out more while keeping them all covered. There's another reason why the stoneless strategy would move us toward Band of Heroes and Kriel Company. While Protective Aura is better with models that have boxes and enough base armor to matter, Madrak's feat is better with more tough rolls, which we get with 10-man, single-wound units. Our best are Raiders and Fennblades. Scattergunners and Bushwackers are also pretty good, and any of these units can get a lot of mileage out of Fortune. While the warbeasts do need protective Aura, Madrak can cover that himself. His aura will generally be smaller, though. It's easier for his beasts to stay in it if they don't have to move as much, which in turn is easier if they are primarily ranged attackers like the Bomber and Pyre Troll. In Band, that means that the beasts can add some much-needed ranged support and in KC, they are all that's allowed anyway. As for B) it is also totally doable to run Madrak 3 with the Krielstone anyway. The reason to do that is indeed so you can spread out more, which is often key in scenario play. The original Dual Aura list was in Band, before the Northkin CID. It's just that Storm of the North would also let us double up on Champs, but it offers us something even better in the Bears, and if your strategy is to spread out for scenario presence it's hard to top the Northkin. |
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