|
Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 20, 2018 12:39:51 GMT
So many of us were excited to get a generic reach heavy, until we realized we wanted a cheap generic reach heavy. I came back from Mercs and long for the days of my Nomads, beasts vs warjacks and all that.
I'm not seeing him in really any list builds, even the for funsies. Is everyone else having as tough a time with him at 16 points? Or is it something else? It's still a beautiful model, I'd really like to get him out there, but man does he eat up list points fast.
Sadly, I run no Doomies at the moment.
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Sept 20, 2018 13:05:58 GMT
I think the 16 Points are pretty tough in list building. You often try to squeeze in to the very last point. In POD 2 points mean that you cna take the bellows Crew, or could mean that your build works out with a full stone. You will most likely go for the EBDT especially if you are taking multiples. If you go for another theme, then you still want the Mauler and often the Bomber and then not another beast to get 3 Free things.
All of that said, I think the brawler is pretty good! 2 inch Reach is superb and Mulg was often used in the past, just because of the 2" reach. The animus can be situationally good also. Lastly P+S 17 (on both initials!) is really good! You could just get away without Rage, if you do however add that, than you stack extremely high. In comparison to the EBDT it loses only 1 inch threat but gains +2 Pow and could be Rushed and still hit reasonably hard.
I think what we should do is to just put it on the table. Invest the 2 points and see how it does. I would expect it to be pretty good actually! The community did not without reason pretty much wish for exactly this model ^^
|
|
bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Sept 20, 2018 13:55:45 GMT
Yeah 16 pts. is waaay too many for what he does - which is nothing really. Animus is more or less useless, chain weapon is very situational (Good against the new Khador stuff maybe?) Northkin tag also more or less useless I think. I take a Mauler instead everytime. Man. He should have come out 4 years ago in mk2 when we actually needed him Or different/more interesting design. He could have a shield instead of 2nd flail like a grown up Bouncer. ARM 20 but less POW. Beatback Animus.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Sept 20, 2018 14:01:34 GMT
The issues are the exact same one we brought up when he was in CID.
- His animus (Troll lists need the animi to help the force) Are you bringing Far Strike to help out your caster or Rage to increase the hitting power of your beasts. Retaliatory strike is underwhelming and helps no one else, but the beast.
- He is competing with 2 excellent melee heavies in the Earthborn and the Mauler. He's more expensive and even if you are running 5 heavies you are more likely to want double Mauler, Double Earthborn.
our beast design as a faction is a little, we have access to Rush and Rage, but you can't put both on the same heavy. When compared to other hordes factions you can see the issue: - Skorne: Have Enrage and Rush so they can hand out pathfinder + Damage - Legion: Many beasts already have Pathfinder or Flight. Damage buffs usually on caster. - Circle: Playing Bones, because damage buff on stones and native pathfinder. Now they will play wolves, because they are getting pathfinder - Minions: Play Rask, because of access to Boundless charge, damage buff and rage. - Grymkin: Damage buff tied to spells like Manifest Destiny meaning SnM can use animus for Pathfinder. It doesn't really work that way in Trolls. Grissel1 should be strong, but her feat is so mediocre it's hard to justify her despite how good Boundless Charge is.
That said if the Brawler had native pathfinder or Rush as it's animus it would see play. It's just very difficult to justify a beast that needs other heavies to support it and brings no utility in it's animus to the table.
It's a shame, because it's really cool to have Brawlers base threat 11 inches with the COld stone, before rage, but a Pow 17 heavy can't kill a 10 point Khador jack and then it dies in return.
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Sept 20, 2018 15:08:41 GMT
The Animus issue is true, but that is more or less the case for when you build outside of PoD, where you are more limited and just want to get Snipe and Rage because otherwise the Bomber (that you already got for Snipe!) uses only half its potential. I think it does not striclty need a "good animus" to be good, its harder to justify then non the less. I think retalatory strike is much better on the board than it sound in theory.
The EBDT is also good, but it hat 2 less Pow. This means that even with Rage it hits just slightly harder. I think this should not be overlooked. Pow 17 also means that you can Rush this warbeast and still hit reasonably hard. I think the "Khador Heavy" Math is really not appropriate. If you do something like 2/3 of the damage grid to a Warjack, you most likely crippeled one or more systems and suddendly that Jack is not a Threat to you anymore. Without Rush but with Rage, you go to Pow 20 or 21 under the Stone and that shreds about every Jack that you encounter. All while still theatening only 1" less than the EBDT in difficult terrain. I think that the problem here is that the EBDT is simply too good in comparison and cheaper in addition to that while the option of Rage alone makes up for his pow 15.
His Reach pairs well with Overtake from Doomy2, so that is also something to concider (sadly 2 EBDT, 2 Mauler, Mulg and Axer + full stone is 75 points, meaning that the 2 points are simply not possible to squeeze in anymore! Maybe 16 points are not too expensive for what he does, its jsut too expensive for list construction).
I own two EBDTs and no brawler, but I still think he is worth testing out. Same goes for the Blitzer (I know, I know!). The EBDT was concidered horrible before people put it on the table and it only got better since.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 20, 2018 15:52:19 GMT
The Brawler is at least niche-playable if not situationally strong. But yes, point cost 16 is too much, and list building would be much easier with it at 15 and the Blitzer at 14. What is that niche then? I think there are actually two. The first is in POD with either Ragnor or Doomy 3, because the synergies are just that good. Their feats really help those Ret Strikes. Doomy's feat also gives the Brawler boosted attack rolls. Add in a free casting of Rage and it can crush two Slayers in one activation. Even with Unyielding, one would be dead and the other would lose multiple systems and probably not survive a Ret Strike. Add Stone Strength and there's a good chance they're both totaled. Also, Implacability means that Doomy 3 is better able to afford 16 points for his third heavy because he doesn't need an Earthborn or Bouncer as much as some warlocks do. Ragnor has Pulverizer, which is brilliant on a heavy with Fury 4 and two initials both with reach. Not only can it clear zones, but POW 19 often means not needing Rage. That can either save fury or free it up to have Rush, which is even better with melee reach. Add it all up, and the Brawler can really dig into the enemy lines from some surprising vectors. At one point, I built this list even though I never got to play it: conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0bfLjnjn9DiRjp0hjq7d6R0l0mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia [Ragnor 1] Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] The other niche for the Brawler that I know of is in Band of Heroes with a Chronicler. I'm actually going to cite Ragnor again because he doesn't need a list of animi like some other warlocks do. Here's a rough draft of a list where all three warbeasts have 2-inch melee reach. You might have an easier time setting up Charge of the Trolls between that and Pulverizer. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0afLjn0h0jjq6G6T6M6O0l0miTbK6mTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes [Ragnor 1] Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Horthol, Long Rider Hero [8] Stone Scribe Chronicler [4] Trollkin Champion Hero [5] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [5] Trollkin Long Riders (max) [20] You might also look at Calandra, Madrak 1, or Borka 1 to stack a DEF buff with Tale of Mists, though Madrak 1 wants Far Strike in there somewhere.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 20, 2018 16:09:43 GMT
That's a good one too- Doomy 2. Those two reach initials with decent base POW are great with Overtake. With Rage and Wild Aggression, you can send him in instead of Mulg and get about as much done. This list is a bit brazen, and yes it would be much better with the Brawler at 15 points, but FWIW the Gobbers can help protect a flank. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0b53jn9DiRiRjp0hjq7d6R0k0m2NTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia [Doomshaper 2] Hoarluk Doomshaper, Rage of Dhunia [+27] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Mulg the Ancient [22] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Troll Whelps [0(4)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2]
|
|
cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
|
Post by cuberic on Sept 20, 2018 17:14:07 GMT
The brawler has great native and walking threat. His pow is deceptively higher because he can ignore shields. With 2" reach he can un-jam your front line a lot better than most of our warbeasts. 16 points is a little high. I wish pathfinder was available to all Northkin beasts to make them a more attractive option. Here is something that I've been eyeing. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0Gj1jnjn0hjqfI6Gj20li-j5i_j3Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North [Kolgrima 1] Kolgrima Stonetruth, Winter Witch [+28] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [4] Fell Caller Hero [5] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Raiders (max) [15] Pyg Lookouts (min) [7] Hearthgut Hooch Hauler [18] It's not super optimized with 3 free solo's but you can solve a bunch of questions. Up to 15" charge threat with the brawlers, or a 10" walking threat. Lookouts to help contest far flags, and help the hooch hit. Raiders can clear loads of infantry with cursed fate. Only downside is lack of bears.
|
|
|
Post by chainsawx on Sept 20, 2018 17:43:13 GMT
His animus is fun with Borka 2 at least, and the 2" reach is great with Madrak 2 for feat turn. He hits reasonably hard too. However with Borka 2 you are more to likely cast the EBDT's animus or Pyre Troll's animus (or both!) most turns. He's not useless but I agree for the points you usually will get a Mauler, EBDT if you need a melee beast.
|
|
|
Post by disgruntledwargamer on Sept 20, 2018 17:55:48 GMT
I have him in BoH because I can also bring Axer and Chronicler. Little weapon master dudes clearing his charge lane so that he can Rush in and smash stuff is fun.
I also have him in Borka2 PoD, because the 2" helps him get the countercharge when I would have normally blocked myself out (ie, he stops when contacting a model, but the 2" gives him that range). On the flip side, in that list, the enemy usially just runs a guy up into melee and doesn't attack because it stops the countercharge and doesn't trigger the animus.
Btw, Borka2 actually likes the animus when fighting far forward and when not worried about having to run EBDT animus (late game, either when enemy tries assassin run with no more headbutters or other KD garbage in range). Using the Mount as the retaliatory strike is hilarious.
|
|
|
Post by Phlushot on Sept 20, 2018 18:03:41 GMT
I feel like he's a model that is just on the edge. I tend to look at models as either being .5 points above or below their actual cost (and then a small number of models who are exactly where they should be). So the Earthborn feels like he should really cost 14.5 points, the Mauler is appropriately costed at 15, the Brawler is really more like 15.5. Any little change to him would make him into a REALLY good beast. Better animus? Done. +1 Pow? Done. +1 Mat? Done. -1 cost? Done. Almost anything would push him over the edge into getting on the table consistently. As it is he feels like a luxury model that I just never seem to find the space for.
I totally disagree about the Northkin tag being worthless though. Upkeeping for free on him, benefiting from the Hooch Hauler buffs, cold stone affecting him, all excellent bonuses.
Admittedly I say all this without ever actually putting him on the table. He's on my list of things to buy still (very near the top though).
|
|
|
Post by disgruntledwargamer on Sept 20, 2018 18:24:52 GMT
Here is where I have him now. I waffle on the elder (north or stone), because I don't know which is more important:the 2 inches, access to extra cold damage on shaman, and extra pow on borka2, compared to anti stealth, anti incorp, anti continuous effects.
Trollblood - Borka2 again. Theme: The Power of Dhunia 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws - WB: +27 - Dire Troll Brawler - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Earthborn Dire Troll - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Pyre Troll - PC: 8 - Pyre Troll - PC: 8 - Storm Troll - PC: 9 - Troll Axer - PC: 10 - Rök - PC: 19
Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 0 Northkin Shaman - PC: 0 Northkin Shaman - PC: 0
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3 Dhunian Knot - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6
Yes there are better builds. My Ragnor double Brawler or Horgle double Brawler were experiments that really pushed that beast's envelope. And the Madrak2 BoH fennblade love was fun, but my favorite warlocks get priority because I'm a filthy casual. This Borka2 list is being paired with Grim2 in KC... because I love war wagons and Grim2 has a sweet hat.
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Sept 20, 2018 19:00:39 GMT
Honestly I think the Brawler suffers from being the heavy that you choose 3rd or 4th after the Mauler/Earthborn/Bomber.
This leads to the conclusion that he is almost always played in POD which means he hardly ever sees table time as POD struggles on lots of scenarios as it is a pretty weak theme force.
That said, I think he has a place with Madrak2 where he gains Relentless Charge from the Field Marshal allowing him to benefit from Rage and he can get a lot of work done on the feat turn.
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Sept 20, 2018 19:05:15 GMT
The "we need anon-character 2" reach heavy"-sentiment is a remnant of MK2 imo, because back then, the other heavies had 0.5" reach which is unplayably bad. Now when heavies have a 1" reach base line, the issue is way less of a problem.
I have played the Brawler a bit in SotN as it can benefit from the +1 SPD. I pair him with Rök for a possible damage buff, and champs/bears yo do the majority of the heavy lifting. I think he is OK, but not more than that.
|
|
|
Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 20, 2018 19:53:30 GMT
Appreciate the feedback, I was drifting away from Ragnor but I might give him another look. Seems to bring a lot to what Brawler wants. And he's still a sweet looking warlock. Not in PoD though. Never anything in PoD........
|
|