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Post by MrHaystacks on Sept 18, 2018 10:23:35 GMT
For Khador, my suggestions for best are: Fluff/Concept: Butcher2, as said above, he is not competitive, but his look, feel and rules all scream HOMERCIDAL MANIAC!!! For rules and synergy within the caster: Vlad2, His spel;l list works well, he plays the lord, the king, the one in charge, but can also rock up and get his hands dirty when needed.
Worst. For fluff/concept to model Harkavitch. He is our primary jack caster. He is in the fluff able to make them act like this great pack of wolves almost. He is known for making jacks appear from unexpected quarters. As a Cool Guy, He is trying to win hearts and minds in Leal by rebuilding it. His rules convey the fast aspect but that's it. he has no upkeeps so to make his jacks work he has to spend his whole stack. He lost fortune so he has no hit fixer beyond a very expensive short ranged nuke on a crit. All of our jacks are rat 4 (baring B.Ivan) so actually hitting anything with a telling shot is unlikely. His spell list is pretty situational. His feat is a saving grace as its the 2nd only arm buff feat in faction.
Rules and skornagy: Zerkova 2 and vlad3 has been mentioned so I suggest Vlad1. He is a decent caster and the ultimate turd polisher. That's it. He does 1 thing a turn. Advance cask S&P maybe windwall. that's it. Yes he makes you army better, yes he is a good caster, but for sheer amounts of design space taken up by this model, the linier aspect if him THE only redeeming feature is he lets you play something crazy like berserker spam,. The fact the rest of his card could be blank and he would still be used.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 22, 2018 17:03:34 GMT
Please note that the question is of the best design, not power level. A caster as broken as Ossrum is by definition not well-designed, especially when what shoves him off the curve feels much more like brute force than tactical ingenuity.
That said, for Trolls really almost all of our warlocks are very well-designed. Even Jarl took a lot of flack but turned out to be a viable path to a different way to play the faction. It would be easier to list the ones who aren't.
Madrak 3 is a great idea, but the parts just don't come together. When he was first published, his feat had an exploit with free strikes. So did they just add Parry to the feat? That would not only solve that problem but also give it a proactive use. No, they went for a more complicated nerf that still leaves the feat as a whole quite messy. It still does nothing for anyone but warrior models, even though he has Soothing Song for warbeasts. His feat can also be completely voided by pretty common counters or even just plain dumb luck. And the rest of his kit is not quite strong or even cohesive enough to let him get by without a feat. Personally, I consider Madrak 3 a frustrating missed opportunity.
I understand why Grissel 1 lost her feat. It was just plain too powerful. But why remove it wholesale when a real fix would actually be pretty simple? Just let her use any number of calls on her feat turn. Done. That way, instead of everything in her CTRL being affected by all three as it was in Mk2, she would have to choose who gets which one, and would still have to get them within the normal range of the fell call. She could put Hoof It on everybody she can reach if she really wants to, or Ballad, or mix and match, but you'd actually have to think about it. They could even exempt the offensive call. That's fine. This is particularly irritating when the lack of a feat is the only thing holding back an otherwise perfectly good caster, and it really did not have to be this way. "For the rest of this activation, Grissel may use the Heroic Ballad and Hoof It fell calls an unlimited number of times." Add a tactical tip that no other aspects of the calls are changed- still only one per unit, and so on. Done. Seems pretty simple to me.
Sure, Horgle and Calandra somehow manage to feel underpowered even though their designs are actually quite clever, but again, this is about the quality of the design, not the power curve. Madrak 1 might be a bit overpowered, but the revamp is quite solid. My only quibble there is giving him Tactician instead of putting it on a solo that we could run with any caster.
That said, I do get a bit nervous around the "Haley 3 category," which also includes Kolgrima and The Dreamer- casters whose very high power level is only balanced by the difficulty of playing them well. I think there's a place for that in any game but it's a precarious balance.
As for other factions, Tanith is one of the best pieces of design I've seen in any game in the past five years. She gives Circle things that they were missing while at the same time matching the feel of the faction very well. She is equal parts cagey and brutal and she's even a good example of where the power curve for a caster should be. Zaadesh is amazing, even to play against. I think it's impossible to have a dull game with him on the table. Maybe if the opponent just turtles or gets full time-walked by his feat? Others have mentioned Butcher 3 but I will shout out Butcher 1 as the ultimate example of how a simple design can work so well. And yes, I still love Kozlov. I know that it's very difficult to build a list that he can run better than some other warcaster, but he does exemplify Khador very well and will no doubt be a great asset in the Champions format.
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swan101
Baby's First Wargame
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Post by swan101 on Sept 22, 2018 17:33:24 GMT
Seen a few people saying Connie for worst (either for Cygnar or Mercs). Maybe I don’t understand the question but I disagree strongly here. She’s well designed from a fluff/achieving her concept standpoint. Sure she’s not powerful but that’s a function of lack of Morrowan support. She’s well designed from a fluff perspective though and has scope for being a fun caster. Her feat is fun on paper and she should have good morrowan synergy. There just aren’t enough morrow models.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 22, 2018 17:52:18 GMT
Seen a few people saying Connie for worst (either for Cygnar or Mercs). Maybe I don’t understand the question but I disagree strongly here. She’s well designed from a fluff/achieving her concept standpoint. Sure she’s not powerful but that’s a function of lack of Morrowan support. She’s well designed from a fluff perspective though and has scope for being a fun caster. Her feat is fun on paper and she should have good morrowan synergy. There just aren’t enough morrow models. That lack of options for her to support would be consideration for a bad design. Having a Warlock do well with only Battle Engines, but only have access to the Mk 2 derp turtle and nothing else for that platform (a model so bad that Skorne players rejoiced when the Farrow Battle Engine was released by saying, "we finally have a Battle Engine"), would be considered a case of bad design.
Zaal1 isn't taken very often because in order to justify his low WB points, you have to take Ancestral Guardians, literally. His joined solo can't even be fielded without an AGuardian on the table dying. So that puts him squarely in the Exalted Theme, because he isn't good enough to not play outside of Theme, and AGuardians cannot be taken anywhere else. BUT, Zaal2, the Immortalized construct Warlock (pun intended) plays the Exalted Theme so much better, and even Xerxis1 (Mr Cataphract) plays the Exalted Theme better than Zaal1.
In Constance's case, she works with Morrowans very well, but that is literally one unit and only a couple of solos. It doesn't help that one unit isn't very good, even with her help, to justify going whole hog in to it. Then when you go in to Themes, Morrowans are available in Irregulars for Mercs and Heavy Metal in Cygnar, both of which are Jack-heavy Themes. You can go unit-strong in Irregulars, but it is better to go with Steelheads since they get more benefit from the other Merc Warcasters than the Morrowans get from Constance, and there are more models of them to benefit (to be made even worse after their next CID).
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Post by challenger on Sept 22, 2018 22:48:54 GMT
Please note that the question is of the best design, not power level. A caster as broken as Ossrum is by definition not well-designed, especially when what shoves him off the curve feels much more like brute force than tactical ingenuity. That isn't true though - Ossrum is a general and his feat is named "Perfect Plan". Considering how often he wins games, that plan is pretty perfect sounding to me
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 22, 2018 23:41:56 GMT
Best Designed: A caster with a range of options not just for their own army but also for their opponents. Their game is dynamic, interesting and fun for both players and they engage in multiple parts of the game with strong effects with mitigating counters for their opponent.
- Stryker 2 - Irusk 2 - Reznik 2
Worst Designed: A caster with a limited range of options for a limited selection of models. Their game is static and focused on reducing counterplay for their small number of models. They engage in reduced parts of the game with overwhelming effects leading to binary games.
- Orion - Kara Sloan - Caine 3
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 22, 2018 23:44:00 GMT
Please note that the question is of the best design, not power level. A caster as broken as Ossrum is by definition not well-designed, especially when what shoves him off the curve feels much more like brute force than tactical ingenuity. That isn't true though - Ossrum is a general and his feat is named "Perfect Plan". Considering how often he wins games, that plan is pretty perfect sounding to me Really? Feat, run/charge everything in, score, win? That's yer brilliant strategy? No, that's just dumb brute force. Sure, if you go the BG route you can use more bulldozes than any list should have. You can sometimes do some things that way that could be considered clever, but even then you're probably just spamming gun bunnies. If you're running a bunch of Forge Guard you have to learn how to maneuver 20-30 models. Sure, but the Siege Crawler breaks those lists too. Yes, Ossrum can be and often is played at a higher level, but when it comes down to it, he is still about 80% comprised of overpowered, stupid-broken, brute-force gear check. You have an answer or you don't, and there's not much that either player can do about that.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Sept 23, 2018 2:30:17 GMT
That isn't true though - Ossrum is a general and his feat is named "Perfect Plan". Considering how often he wins games, that plan is pretty perfect sounding to me Really? Feat, run/charge everything in, score, win? That's yer brilliant strategy? No, that's just dumb brute force. well, it is called "perfect plan," not "complex plan."
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 23, 2018 4:38:44 GMT
Really? Feat, run/charge everything in, score, win? That's yer brilliant strategy? No, that's just dumb brute force. well, it is called "perfect plan," not "complex plan." LOL. Touche. Xykon's recipe for winning- "There is always a level of force against which no strategy can succeed."
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 23, 2018 17:16:58 GMT
Please note that the question is of the best design, not power level. A caster as broken as Ossrum is by definition not well-designed, especially when what shoves him off the curve feels much more like brute force than tactical ingenuity. That said, for Trolls really almost all of our warlocks are very well-designed. Even Jarl took a lot of flack but turned out to be a viable path to a different way to play the faction. It would be easier to list the ones who aren't. Madrak 3 is a great idea, but the parts just don't come together. When he was first published, his feat had an exploit with free strikes. So did they just add Parry to the feat? That would not only solve that problem but also give it a proactive use. No, they went for a more complicated nerf that still leaves the feat as a whole quite messy. It still does nothing for anyone but warrior models, even though he has Soothing Song for warbeasts. His feat can also be completely voided by pretty common counters or even just plain dumb luck. And the rest of his kit is not quite strong or even cohesive enough to let him get by without a feat. Personally, I consider Madrak 3 a frustrating missed opportunity. I understand why Grissel 1 lost her feat. It was just plain too powerful. But why remove it wholesale when a real fix would actually be pretty simple? Just let her use any number of calls on her feat turn. Done. That way, instead of everything in her CTRL being affected by all three as it was in Mk2, she would have to choose who gets which one, and would still have to get them within the normal range of the fell call. She could put Hoof It on everybody she can reach if she really wants to, or Ballad, or mix and match, but you'd actually have to think about it. They could even exempt the offensive call. That's fine. This is particularly irritating when the lack of a feat is the only thing holding back an otherwise perfectly good caster, and it really did not have to be this way. "For the rest of this activation, Grissel may use the Heroic Ballad and Hoof It fell calls an unlimited number of times." Add a tactical tip that no other aspects of the calls are changed- still only one per unit, and so on. Done. Seems pretty simple to me. Sure, Horgle and Calandra somehow manage to feel underpowered even though their designs are actually quite clever, but again, this is about the quality of the design, not the power curve. Madrak 1 might be a bit overpowered, but the revamp is quite solid. My only quibble there is giving him Tactician instead of putting it on a solo that we could run with any caster. That said, I do get a bit nervous around the "Haley 3 category," which also includes Kolgrima and The Dreamer- casters whose very high power level is only balanced by the difficulty of playing them well. I think there's a place for that in any game but it's a precarious balance. As for other factions, Tanith is one of the best pieces of design I've seen in any game in the past five years. She gives Circle things that they were missing while at the same time matching the feel of the faction very well. She is equal parts cagey and brutal and she's even a good example of where the power curve for a caster should be. Zaadesh is amazing, even to play against. I think it's impossible to have a dull game with him on the table. Maybe if the opponent just turtles or gets full time-walked by his feat? Others have mentioned Butcher 3 but I will shout out Butcher 1 as the ultimate example of how a simple design can work so well. And yes, I still love Kozlov. I know that it's very difficult to build a list that he can run better than some other warcaster, but he does exemplify Khador very well and will no doubt be a great asset in the Champions format. Agree with you for the most part about Tanith, but she is kind of wonky, too. Being that she is a very spell-focused Warlock and the abundance of powerful druids in Circle I really think she should be fury 7. 6 is honestly low for Circle, but I really like her kit and always enjoy playing her (also. I really hate Bleed as a spell. It's not unthematic, but it's such a dud spell it will never get used. Terrible). Tanith's biggest problem comes from the Skornergy between her Feat and theme benefit in Call of the Wild. The Feat in general feels kind of weird. It feels spell slingy, but with her many upkeeps she often doesn't have much Fury left to make use of it and since cost 1 animi still stay 1 a lot of beasts don't get much use from it either. Usually it's just a handy way to cycle fresh upkeeps a little more efficiently. It doesn't quite feel like a savage acolyte of the Wurm using powerful magics. I'd like to throw both Grims into the ring for best designed in Trolls, too. Grim has ever been my favorite Trollbloods warlock and I think Grim2 follows up nicely. Grim1 you definitely feel powerful all game long, picking your target and putting a bullet between it's eyes or disabling a key model with the netgun, to "spreading the net" and pinning your quarry down. Grim2 has a somewhat similar feeling, but with a little more support. The powerful, frontloaded feat definitely feels like a small warband lying in wait to ambush their prey and decimate them with overwhelming firepower. I love them and I miss my trolls a bit.
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