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Post by jisidro on Sept 6, 2018 13:16:17 GMT
Like the idea but for what you say you want it I think you need magic weapons on demand... aka, known as Mist Speaker. Why 2xGallows? Krueger1 won't be casting a lot since he's a Gale Winds bot ATM.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 6, 2018 14:19:03 GMT
Like the idea but for what you say you want it I think you need magic weapons on demand... aka, known as Mist Speaker. Why 2xGallows? Krueger1 won't be casting a lot since he's a Gale Winds bot ATM. He's a gale winds bot when the matchup demands it. If your opponent doesn't have a lot of guns he can be much more valuable casting forked lightning, lightning tendrils or tornado. In those situations you'll want the groves. The groves also provide anti tough and anti healing fields where you need them. Kreuger1 actually has some interesting versatility build in. Groves can also be sacrificed by a blood shaman brought in by the well if you want to go that route. You don't need magic weapons on demand. His feat will clear that chaff and the only other situation is the wraith engine. If that's the concern I'd swap out one of the heavies for a pureblood.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 6, 2018 14:39:26 GMT
Lets see...not a ton of shooting, is resistant to enemy shooting and has anti-infantry capabilities (solely on the back of Krueger1), but lacks any real armor cracking. Magic Weapons capable of dealing with Wraith Engines are virtually nonexistant, and the only RFP in the list is shackled to a stationary model (and thus is virtually useless for RFPing the things you actually need to RFP).
Looks pretty much exactly like what I said - you can fix one or more of the weaknesses of the theme with a caster, but the theme isn't bringing inherent strengths.
Also, to the lists you claim to be able to drop it into...
- Bradigus or Baldur are better into Maelok (3d3 lightning generators is not 'a ton'). Typical Rask brings more heavies than that, hits way harder, and threats way further. Good luck winning that piece trading game. Arkadius functions similarly to Rask. - You can't even come close to dropping this into Cryx. No answers to wraith engines, no decent RFP for ghost fleet, probably plays into 9 slayers worse than Bradigus or Baldur, might be able to play into Slaughter Fleet, but it's not advantaged. - You're not going to trade effectively into Grymkin DM.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 6, 2018 16:26:24 GMT
Like the idea but for what you say you want it I think you need magic weapons on demand... aka, known as Mist Speaker. Why 2xGallows? Krueger1 won't be casting a lot since he's a Gale Winds bot ATM. He's a gale winds bot when the matchup demands it. If your opponent doesn't have a lot of guns he can be much more valuable casting forked lightning, lightning tendrils or tornado. In those situations you'll want the groves. The groves also provide anti tough and anti healing fields where you need them. Kreuger1 actually has some interesting versatility build in. Groves can also be sacrificed by a blood shaman brought in by the well if you want to go that route. You don't need magic weapons on demand. His feat will clear that chaff and the only other situation is the wraith engine. If that's the concern I'd swap out one of the heavies for a pureblood. You're forgetting PoM. It's a different match if Raptor can shoot and force them into his Disruption beak.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 19, 2018 0:23:21 GMT
Ok. CID is over. Now where do the fuzzies fit if the last changes go through? Pathfinder is available to almost the entire faction now. 3 beasts gained increased melee damage, our 10inch spray gained a point of rat. Brennos has different (probably better?) support options now. Raptor, I don't know. Ghetorix is beefier. Most are cheaper so can get more into their lists.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 19, 2018 2:05:03 GMT
Ok. CID is over. Now where do the fuzzies fit if the last changes go through? Pathfinder is available to almost the entire faction now. 3 beasts gained increased melee damage, our 10inch spray gained a point of rat. Brennos has different (probably better?) support options now. Raptor, I don't know. Ghetorix is beefier. Most are cheaper so can get more into their lists. Individually, I think all of the living heavies are in a pretty reasonable place (I'm not convinced on the Riphorn, I think it still occupies too similar a role to the Gnarlhorn and the Feral, without bringing any real utility of it's own). I am less convinced that COTW will be a viable theme to put in a competitive pairing, absent a few specific builds (cough, griffons) but that's largely down to a lack of: - ranged attacks - screening units - effective scenario pieces, and - ranged survivability Some of those weaknesses might be fine, but together? I don't see a compelling reason to play the theme over Bones.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 19, 2018 17:09:38 GMT
As a troll olayer i have experinented a bit with minions in Power of Dhunia. Perhaps that is a thing to try in Cotw too? You obly need 75 points of beasts so you can fit a minion unit for sure. Agree though that Bones is probably better. I had expected Ghetorix to be allowed in cotw, and/or Loki, but no dice
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Post by sirk on Sept 19, 2018 17:38:10 GMT
Either Ghetorix or Loki should have been allowed in COTW. Having Brennos there makes no sense at all. I remember someone mentioning a rule that seemed perfect to me "one living warbeast character of choice".
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Post by paradox on Sept 19, 2018 19:13:37 GMT
Either Ghetorix or Loki should have been allowed in COTW. Having Brennos there makes no sense at all. I remember someone mentioning a rule that seemed perfect to me "one living warbeast character of choice". Why does Brennos make no sense in Call? How to Loki or Ghetorix make more sense?
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Post by Trollock on Sept 19, 2018 22:04:18 GMT
Either Ghetorix or Loki should have been allowed in COTW. Having Brennos there makes no sense at all. I remember someone mentioning a rule that seemed perfect to me "one living warbeast character of choice". Why does Brennos make no sense in Call? How to Loki or Ghetorix make more sense? I cant comment on brennos, but for us who do not give a F about fluff i guess we want the character living beasts in the living beast theme. They are great with the casters who might play that theme, so that is why i want them there.
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Post by paradox on Sept 19, 2018 22:47:12 GMT
Why does Brennos make no sense in Call? How to Loki or Ghetorix make more sense? I cant comment on brennos, but for us who do not give a F about fluff i guess we want the character living beasts in the living beast theme. They are great with the casters who might play that theme, so that is why i want them there. Well, perhaps therein lies the problem.
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Post by sirk on Sept 19, 2018 22:57:23 GMT
Either Ghetorix or Loki should have been allowed in COTW. Having Brennos there makes no sense at all. I remember someone mentioning a rule that seemed perfect to me "one living warbeast character of choice". Why does Brennos make no sense in Call? How to Loki or Ghetorix make more sense? To me, for two reasons: theme and function. From a theme point of view, Brennos is the less "Wild" of all our stable and a theme centered on the savage part of the faction is oddly represented by an old goat with a staff. On the countrary, Secret Masters, that embraces the magical aspect of Circle, would have been a perfect fit for Brennos, who, according to its story, spent time with several Blackclads before finally meeting Morvahna and was trained by many different druids. More importantly, from a funcional point of view, as Oncomingstorm was pointing out, our living beasts are in a much better shape now (the ones that went throught cid at least) but COTW remains a risky business because it feels lacking on too many aspects. Ghetorix and/or Loki would have covered some of them, the first by granting us a fairly resilient heavy to keep scenario presence (actually, the only resilient heavy we have outside constructs). The second by giving us a caster independent trick against shooting that would have improved against gunlines (in a beast list even a single shield guard can make the difference, expecially an arm19 one) and a threatening range extension that would have improved the predictable game of a all-beast list. Even while channeling suppression is (conditionally) quite good, there is no comparison to how useful (and needed!!) Gheto or Loki would have been in the theme.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 20, 2018 0:10:52 GMT
I think CotW is perfectly viable. Baldur1, Kromac2, Kaya3, And Una2 all run that theme well post CiD
My issue with the theme pre-CiD was its inability to play a trading game with heavies. Basically a bullet to the head for an all Beast list.
I think even currently you can make it viable in a pairing. Kaya3, With Shadowhorns And Scarsfells is pretty nasty. Then there’s her with 5 Winter Argi. Which is hilariously effective. Una2 runs birb Spam well
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Post by elshinare on Sept 20, 2018 0:55:34 GMT
I think CotW is perfectly viable. Baldur1, Kromac2, Kaya3, And Una2 all run that theme well post CiD My issue with the theme pre-CiD was its inability to play a trading game with heavies. Basically a bullet to the head for an all Beast list. I think even currently you can make it viable in a pairing. Kaya3, With Shadowhorns And Scarsfells is pretty nasty. Then there’s her with 5 Winter Argi. Which is hilariously effective. Una2 runs birb Spam well I play the list Pagani was playing with Kromac2 and it is fairly viable PreCiD and will only be better postcid. I think the problem is people compare one list to another when it LOOKS like it should do the same, but they are completely different in what they do and how they do it.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 20, 2018 15:03:19 GMT
I think CotW is perfectly viable. Baldur1, Kromac2, Kaya3, And Una2 all run that theme well post CiD My issue with the theme pre-CiD was its inability to play a trading game with heavies. Basically a bullet to the head for an all Beast list. I think even currently you can make it viable in a pairing. Kaya3, With Shadowhorns And Scarsfells is pretty nasty. Then there’s her with 5 Winter Argi. Which is hilariously effective. Una2 runs birb Spam well I play the list Pagani was playing with Kromac2 and it is fairly viable PreCiD and will only be better postcid. I think the problem is people compare one list to another when it LOOKS like it should do the same, but they are completely different in what they do and how they do it. What was the pagani list?
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