snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467 
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Post by snoozer on Sept 4, 2018 14:35:42 GMT
Hi, I wanted to start a discussion on how you would rank the Cid warpwolves and Goats now. Do you think it will be worthwile to get multiples (as more than 1 Feral?). Or will most lists be better of with 1 WW each and 2Goats? Maybe aside of 8 Goats Spam of course  |
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 4, 2018 15:03:38 GMT
Ask again at the end of CID, I'm pretty conflicted on their current design and am eagerly awaiting what will happen in week 2.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 4, 2018 19:55:57 GMT
2 of 3 goats are solid with the right casters. From what i'm hearing a semi-spammy gnarlhorn/shadowhorn satyr with a few wolves as backup k3 CotW list is matching up pretty ok against slayer spam.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 4, 2018 21:16:12 GMT
2 of 3 goats are solid with the right casters. From what i'm hearing a semi-spammy gnarlhorn/shadowhorn satyr with a few wolves as backup k3 CotW list is matching up pretty ok against slayer spam. I believe it was also stated in one of those battle reps that the same list that is good into the Slayer spam is absolute garbage into the rest of Cryx, and many other match ups that Bradigus would like to see.
I agree with streetpizza that we have to wait to see what happens, and I too am very interested to see if anything has changed with tomorrow's CID updates. My fears are that nothing will have changed, but I am trying to stay optimistic.
I would rank them as follows after 1 CID game using goats and wolves with Kromac2:
1) Shadowhorn Satyr (perfect IMO) 2) Gnarlhorn Satyr (perfect again IMO) 3) Feral Warpwolf (improved from before, but suffers from COTW being a bad theme, our casters not supporting beasts as well as they could, us not having good non caster beast support, and warpwolves being a utility beast without any real utility)
4) Warpwolf Stalker (see item 3)
5) Pureblood Warpwolf (see item 3)
6) Riphorn Satyr (see item 2 as Gnarlhorn just steps all over the Riphorn now)
We can go back and forth till we are blue in the face if the Warpwolves should keep the same design or change, but the bottom line is this. The changes in the CID help warpwolves be more relevant in Dev Host, but they fail to make COTW a compelling theme when compared to Bones. My bottom line is this, more than anything I want for Circle to have a relevant competitive choice between playing COTW or Bones. Maybe those two themes try to answer different things, but as it stands today I still can't think of a good reason to play COTW over bones in a competitive environment. COTW is better than it was before, just still not a compelling choice.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 4, 2018 22:32:14 GMT
This isn't a Call of the Wild CID, unfortunately. Try to keep that in mind.
Personally, I don't really care much about Call of the Wild. I have always loved Wolds and Bones is fantastic.
I do, however, adore blackclads and wolfsworn and I'm disappointed that those aren't the themes being worked on, but I'm not going to start pouring ink about how our updated legacy beasts are improved, but this other theme over here that happens to be able to include them remains compelling.
We'll just have to wait for those other themes to get fixed. The beasts are starting to shape up nicely, but for sure the Storm Raptorn, Riphorn, and probably the Pureblood need some extra work.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 4, 2018 23:08:52 GMT
This isn't a Call of the Wild CID, unfortunately. Try to keep that in mind. Personally, I don't really care much about Call of the Wild. I have always loved Wolds and Bones is fantastic. I do, however, adore blackclads and wolfsworn and I'm disappointed that those aren't the themes being worked on, but I'm not going to start pouring ink about how our updated legacy beasts are improved, but this other theme over here that happens to be able to include them remains compelling. We'll just have to wait for those other themes to get fixed. The beasts are starting to shape up nicely, but for sure the Storm Raptorn, Riphorn, and probably the Pureblood need some extra work. It is a bit of an awkward situation for COTW. To your point it is not the focal point of the CID, but the main models used in that theme are in the CID. I think our best case scenario is that Warpwolves are "Patched" until the COTW CID. I just hope PP has some long term goal in mind for making COTW compelling. Whether that be caster improvements, additional support, or adjustments to the theme itself. Warpwolves are my favorite part of Cirlce which is why I am so passionate about seeing them become relevant.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 5, 2018 2:37:32 GMT
Yeah, I feel you there and that's too bad, but I think Call might just be lacking (even if the Una list was like the meta list for Circle like a year ago). Unfortunately short of buffing our beasts into absurdity I don't think there is a niche for CotW. I imagine that Bones would be feeling pretty sad too if they removed Sentry Stones and the Fulcrum from the theme and made Stoneshapers less supportive. That's really the problem with CotW I think. Lack of support and crap model diversity. The living beasts are really shaping up, but in a world of themes they can't really carry a list on their own.
I do think some of our living beasts are feeling a little samey, though. They are all kind of just different flavors of melee beaters and it's getting to the point where there isn't a whole lot to differentiate them.
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Post by onijet01 on Sept 5, 2018 2:49:59 GMT
Personally my oppinions are still unchanged on all warpwolf chasis. The exeption is the Feral at this point, but the chasis is still over priced and not worth using.
I dislike the low arm chasis in my current meta due to a heavy debuff playstyle in my area.(def is the big target between stationary, def debuffs its hurting the warpwolces)
The extra armor and cheap cost of the Satyr frames work better in my meta as each hit does less damage than it would a warpwolf.
Feral is okay at 16 pounts its in the raNge of a diretroll mauler but id rather just take two gorax ragers instead
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Sept 5, 2018 6:20:19 GMT
druidsdice.blogspot.com/2017/05/state-of-faction-25-circle-warbeasts.html?m=1I Fund this old article from LosJaden pretty interesting. It Kind of Shows how much will have changed after this CiD. Also it is my fit satisfying answer to why the pureblood keeps it's points. Lastly, how is CotW a bad theme? The boni are very good, you can easily opt for 4 free cards and have swap gobbers as a unit. I think this still comes from the mindest that every thing that does not include sentry stones is a bad theme?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 5, 2018 6:48:18 GMT
druidsdice.blogspot.com/2017/05/state-of-faction-25-circle-warbeasts.html?m=1I Fund this old article from LosJaden pretty interesting. It Kind of Shows how much will have changed after this CiD. Also it is my fit satisfying answer to why the pureblood keeps it's points. Lastly, how is CotW a bad theme? The boni are very good, you can easily opt for 4 free cards and have swap gobbers as a unit. I think this still comes from the mindest that every thing that does not include sentry stones is a bad theme? It's a bad theme because it does nothing well, includes pretty much exclusively beasts which are only slight variations on the same theme (moderate def/low arm/melee focused-but-pillowfisted), has no real ability to play scenario effectively (which in Bones does come down to Sentry Stones), and brings none of the tech you find incidentally lying around in Bones (RFP, magic weapons, wightsplosions, shield guard, anti-push tech, ranged weapons). My hypothesis is that there's currently no reason to take CoTW over Bradigus in Bones. The games I have played have not disproven this hypothesis as of yet. |
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Post by jisidro on Sept 5, 2018 11:03:31 GMT
CoTW plays scenario with Shifting Stone scoring the zones... The rest ends up being expensive non-character beasts. Let's see how CID shapes up. A Huge issue is that fact that our lights end up being the scarsfell and if you'retaking that one you might as well take Una2.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Sept 5, 2018 13:46:44 GMT
It's a bad theme because it does nothing well, includes pretty much exclusively beasts which are only slight variations on the same theme (moderate def/low arm/melee focused-but-pillowfisted), has no real ability to play scenario effectively (which in Bones does come down to Sentry Stones), and brings none of the tech you find incidentally lying around in Bones (RFP, magic weapons, wightsplosions, shield guard, anti-push tech, ranged weapons). My hypothesis is that there's currently no reason to take CoTW over Bradigus in Bones. The games I have played have not disproven this hypothesis as of yet.
We will seee how it turns out I suppose. Right now everyone is complaining that BoO is the only theme playable, but it seems that they feel a little too comfortable with it as well.
Magic weapons is useful but matchup dependant, Shield guard you can get Valkyries if you don't want 4 freebies and the Pureblood shoots the best doesn't it? Nothing mirrors the shrimp of course  What gives RFP in Bones? And: all of this is convinent to very helpful in the right matchups (Cryx/Cygnar come to mind) but you can actually play withhout that. Other themes mean that you will have to lose some of that comfort.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 5, 2018 18:05:55 GMT
It's a bad theme because it does nothing well, includes pretty much exclusively beasts which are only slight variations on the same theme (moderate def/low arm/melee focused-but-pillowfisted), has no real ability to play scenario effectively (which in Bones does come down to Sentry Stones), and brings none of the tech you find incidentally lying around in Bones (RFP, magic weapons, wightsplosions, shield guard, anti-push tech, ranged weapons). My hypothesis is that there's currently no reason to take CoTW over Bradigus in Bones. The games I have played have not disproven this hypothesis as of yet.
We will seee how it turns out I suppose. Right now everyone is complaining that BoO is the only theme playable, but it seems that they feel a little too comfortable with it as well.
Magic weapons is useful but matchup dependant, Shield guard you can get Valkyries if you don't want 4 freebies and the Pureblood shoots the best doesn't it? Nothing mirrors the shrimp of course What gives RFP in Bones? And: all of this is convinent to very helpful in the right matchups (Cryx/Cygnar come to mind) but you can actually play withhout that. Other themes mean that you will have to lose some of that comfort.
Sure. None of those tools are relevant in every matchup (RFP is on the woldwatcher, by the way), though some (shield guard, ability to clear high DEF models, e.g.) are relevant in a a large number of games. But each of those tools can be brought incidentally in the course of building a list in that theme force, such that you CAN play into those gear check matchups. And they can be brought largely without sacrificing much in the rest of your list building efficiency. My Bradigus list, for instance, has wights, guardians, and watchers, which means it brings a startling number of tools...but it was build to optimize the synergy chain first, then to bring tools to diversify the lists it can drop into second. Call doesn't have that option. It CAN bring magic weapons - if you bring a pureblood (less painful now). It has no access to RFP. It has no anti-push tech. It has no 'keystone' models that would incentivize you to take the theme (ie, no equivalent to sentry stones). It doesn't bring any particular competencies, other than what the warlock brings to the theme (Krueger1 lets it clear infantry and be somewhat resilient to shooting, Kromac2 lets it crack armor, etc). By contrast, good themes bring something they're good at, then rely on warlock to patch weaknesses or double down on strengths (e.g. Devourer's Host clears infantry well, but can struggle with delivery and armor cracking...so you bring a caster that solves those issues; Bones is hard to shoot and hits hard...so you bring a caster that accentuates those strengths, or clears infantry effectively enough to cover it's weakness. Like...find me a list pair that I can drop Call into, which I could not drop Bradigus into. I can't think of one. There are a few LISTS that Call might handle better (Skorne Exalted, e.g., Black Industries), but it's combined with a complete inability to play into the likely list pair (Rasheth WoD, Mak Cats, Mak million swordsmen or conversely Skarre1 DarkHost; For the rest, I... Can't drop Call into Cygnar, CG, or Retribution, because even with support, it's allergic to shooting. Can't drop it into Khador, because it doesn't crack armor effectively (and IFP/Doom Reavers are horrendously efficient at murdering Warpwolves) Can't drop it into Cryx, because few magic weapons, no RFP, and limited infantry clear. Can't drop it into Circle, because Bradigus melts it, Baldur out-tanks it, and Krueger2 throws warpwolves around like toys. Can't drop it into Trolls, because Kolgrimma's cloudwall shuts it right the hell down and Bearka's feat is a straight death sentence for warpwolves Might be able to drop it into Legion, but Legion is not a faction I'm concerned with. Can't drop it into Minions, because it plays poorly into Maelok, gets out-threated and eaten by Rask and Arkadius. Can't drop it into Grymkin, because it has no effective ways of clearing gremlin swarms, and the beasts cannot trade effectively into Grymkin heavies. Can't drop it into Skorne, because Rasheth straight up murders warpwolves, and is already the drop Circle is most likely to see. |
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Sept 6, 2018 8:50:37 GMT
I do see your point there. Bones is incredibly convinent in that regard! The Pureblood solves some of these problems by handing out magic weapons and blessed to warbeasts. But its more convienent to just have everything on the models anyways. And Bones is always a good drop.
It would be great if Tharn and CotW would become compelling options on their own. They will probably not reach Bones level of auto-utility however.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 6, 2018 12:59:43 GMT
You lack imagination Storm conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0W40eemD4ImCmO5A5g5gc9c95h5f5fmTCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Call of the Wild !!! Your army contains CID entries. [Krueger 1] Krueger the Stormwrath [+28] - Argus Moonhound [6] - Feral Warpwolf [16] - Gnarlhorn Satyr [12] - Shadowhorn Satyr [11] - Storm Raptor [34] - Druid Wilder [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [4] Gallows Grove [2] Gallows Grove [2] Lord of the Feast [0(6)] Shifting Stones [3] Shifting Stones [3] Well of Orboros [10] Excellent shooting protection, reasonable armor cracking but probably not an armored core drop, RFP and magic attacks, has lots of shooting and e-leap threats to keep Brad honest, Baldur probably does out tank it though both kreugers become sad, cloudwall gone and shooting/power attacks for bearka (admitedly not great for bearka), fine for legion, pow 12 e-leaps galore will damage gators you'll need to bait properly vs rask and ark, easy clear of gremlins need good play for beast trades, drop off list for skorne. Doesn't solve everything but brings the tools to be an off list beside a good dev host or bones list. The raptor is mostly in there for giggles. Swap him out for a pureblood and a stalker most likely. |
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What gives RFP in Bones? And: all of this is convinent to very helpful in the right matchups (Cryx/Cygnar come to mind) but you can actually play withhout that. Other themes mean that you will have to lose some of that comfort.