tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128
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Post by tomw on Aug 31, 2018 6:43:53 GMT
Yea. No. They're just pretty awful for that point cost. Things that cost less than an Impaler: Firefly, Ace, Charger, basically any light (and at least one heavy) in Menoth, Raek, etc etc..... It's a long list and he offers no great leaps of ability over much of anything. Maybe he gets touched in next CID for Trolls, maybe we just keep taking Bomber, it's not the worst thing after all. Here's the thing.
He's in the battlebox and that battlebox needs to be 0 points.
If you are PP you have painted yourself into a corner, your options are:
- Increase the cost of the Bouncer or Axer, which would be sad, because they aren't worth it. - Reduce the Warbeast points on Ragnor which is kind of sad, because he doesn't see play as it is. - Keep the Impaler the same points and buff it. Rate of fire 2 maybe?
See it's not as easy to fix as we thing.
As a quick aside, they’ve dropped the feral warpwolf’s cost in the circle CID and haven’t changed any other points to make it up. I suppose we’re only in week 1, and they could change it, or maybe change the other battlebox items when the full rules drop. But it might signify that they’re moving away from this. Back on topic, the impaler is one of the few pieces in trolls (perhaps the only one) that I would say is just plain bad. The only ‘niche’ for it is the one where you absolutely cannot spare 8 points to upgrade to the strictly superior bomber. I once had to do this for a gunny double kings list, and it felt bad. He’s clearly overcosted, but I think making him cheaper could lead to some stupid spam lists (I think gunny would be one of the best for abusing them). I really don’t know how I’d fix him to be honest.
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Post by grabsnikk on Aug 31, 2018 6:50:35 GMT
I say give him flat RoF 2 and Powerful attack. Jesus that would make them absurdly good with Gunnbjorn.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Aug 31, 2018 7:38:10 GMT
He's in the battlebox and that battlebox needs to be 0 points. As a quick aside, they’ve dropped the feral warpwolf’s cost in the circle CID and haven’t changed any other points to make it up. I suppose we’re only in week 1, and they could change it, or maybe change the other battlebox items when the full rules drop. But it might signify that they’re moving away from this. Feral is not on battlebox anymore. There is Pureblood on MK3 box and pureblood is only warpwolf whose point cost is not changing. But I think ROF2 would be too good, cos it will give light beast that can easily make two boosted pow 16-18 ranged attacks and that's far more than 11p light should do. Crit slam to momentum would be easiest way. Slam would be even better.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 31, 2018 11:08:57 GMT
I say give him flat RoF 2 and Powerful attack. Jesus that would make them absurdly good with Gunnbjorn. Sort of. Powerful attack would be ultra redundant because of guided fire as they would be boosting damage anyway. It’s not like Cygnar can’t do the same thing with Sloan or some chargers.
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Post by Phlushot on Aug 31, 2018 17:46:02 GMT
*shrug* make him the Charger of Hordes and call it a day. Take away Set Defense and Crit Smite, maybe take away Thrown (since I'd think 2 fully boosted Pow 17s is a bit excessive). Give it Powerful Attack and Reload 1. Now you have long range shooting where you FS, Boost, Buy or short range turns where you Boost, Buy, Boost. Far Strike for my caster plus 2 fully boosted 13s for 11 points? I see myself regularly taking that over a Bomber.
We have a whole bunch of decent lights that rarely see the light of day simply because they don't fit in lists because of our very expensive heavies. In the world of SR2018 not many people are running PoD and so you just don't have the free points to fit in lights very often.
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Post by grabsnikk on Aug 31, 2018 18:59:06 GMT
We have a whole bunch of decent lights that rarely see the light of day simply because they don't fit in lists because of our very expensive heavies. In the world of SR2018 not many people are running PoD and so you just don't have the free points to fit in lights very often. Honestly I don't think that our heavies being expensive really contributes to our lights not being played much. There are heaps of Troll lists out there running heavies. The main reasons why our lights are not being played are: 1) They are overcosted for what they do such as the Impaler and Slag Trolls. 2) With I think only one exception, their animi are RNG SELF so they cannot buff friendly models at all. 3)Since they do not buff friendly models they should be able to get a decent amount of work done each turn, which considering they only have ROF1 on their ranges attacks, leaves a lot to be desired.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Aug 31, 2018 19:06:47 GMT
+1 to the above. The lights are just plain bad. Only one I like is the Storm because of E-leaps, which is a nice tool to have. The rest got nerfed to **** in mk3. I played a lot of lights back in mk2, since they offered great support and was a decent way to just fill Warbeast points in a troop spam list. The Axer has a decent Animus and gets played, but I never feel like it gets 10 points of worth. At least not compared to Warmachine stuff. I doubt they will fix the Impaler (enough) to be playable - but maybe Trollbloods is just the Gargantuan faction now? (If even that )
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Post by datboi on Aug 31, 2018 19:37:38 GMT
Sorry, didn't read all the posts, but I think that the pyre troll is definitely a fine light. The auto fire ranged weapon combined with a very solid animus for our more melee-centric locks makes him quite valuable
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Aug 31, 2018 19:46:56 GMT
*shrug* make him the Charger of Hordes and call it a day. Take away Set Defense and Crit Smite, maybe take away Thrown (since I'd think 2 fully boosted Pow 17s is a bit excessive). Give it Powerful Attack and Reload 1. Now you have long range shooting where you FS, Boost, Buy or short range turns where you Boost, Buy, Boost. Far Strike for my caster plus 2 fully boosted 13s for 11 points? I see myself regularly taking that over a Bomber. We have a whole bunch of decent lights that rarely see the light of day simply because they don't fit in lists because of our very expensive heavies. In the world of SR2018 not many people are running PoD and so you just don't have the free points to fit in lights very often. Set Defense and Crit Smite are two unique abilities in TBs that I would like to see remain, somewhere. Less differences in abilities = much less interesting play. I don't need a Charger of Hordes, since I play Cygnar, also. I don't 'want this is the X of TBs' in general. Jealousy is a good thing in this game for diversity's sake. Keep Ambush-Bears TB exclusive!!
Imagine if the Impaler had natural range 10-12", with Dual Shot (Kell Bailoch). Forfeit move to Aim for 2x ranged attacks, Farstrike, boost x2 whatevers. Is that worth 11 points? A 14-16" gun that shoots 2x without moving sounds pretty good, especially keeping Set Def and Crit Smite, even if (only) POW 13 (not devastating in BB games).
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envoy
Read Page 5
Posts: 21
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Post by envoy on Aug 31, 2018 21:40:49 GMT
I don't know that he'd even need a range increase. Trolls are about getting the counterpunch after taking it on the chin anyway: they like their targets close, am I right? Give Dual Attack, exchange Crit Smite for Momentum. Done?
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Post by Phlushot on Aug 31, 2018 22:26:01 GMT
We have a whole bunch of decent lights that rarely see the light of day simply because they don't fit in lists because of our very expensive heavies. In the world of SR2018 not many people are running PoD and so you just don't have the free points to fit in lights very often. Honestly I don't think that our heavies being expensive really contributes to our lights not being played much. There are heaps of Troll lists out there running heavies. The main reasons why our lights are not being played are: 1) They are overcosted for what they do such as the Impaler and Slag Trolls. 2) With I think only one exception, their animi are RNG SELF so they cannot buff friendly models at all. 3)Since they do not buff friendly models they should be able to get a decent amount of work done each turn, which considering they only have ROF1 on their ranges attacks, leaves a lot to be desired. In the majority of every Troll list you have 12 points for the stone and 15 for the Mauler. 25% of your list is basically predetermined. You're also almost always going to want either an Earthborn or a Bomber (or another heavy). So you're looking at 41-46 of your ~105 total being taken by heavies and the stone. I know there are lists that don't take exactly that but the vast majority of lists that are either posted on here or FB or that I see pop up in tournaments have this basic formula. And I'm not saying that any of those models are bad, they're all pretty great models but they take a bunch of space in your list. If you're making a SotN list you've probably got 20 points tied up in bears, plus another 16-21 tied in a unit of champs. The points disappear really quick when you started out with 40% of your points locked up right off the bat. Finding room for a light or two is just hard, specially when outside of PoD they don't contribute to free points. Hell Horthol fits into the same spot. He's a perfectly good model I just almost never have room for an 8 point model that isn't contributing to free points and isn't a heavy. And even if I do find space for a light they still require support to be good. I can toss a Charger into any Cygnar list and for the cost of one focus it'll contribute in virtually every game. If I want any of the Troll lights to contribute I have to give them "stuff", whether it's just the stone buff or Rage or whatever. They add complexity and activation considerations when I already have plenty of that. I'd much prefer if they either provided utility or were much more self-sufficient (but didn't accept as much from the outside). Take away Thrown (and compensate in other ways of course) from the Impaler so his gun can't become Pow 17-19 and now it's much more flexible when I can activate him and get stuff done. I 100% agree about the lights and their animus'. I don't know how many times I've thought about a model and thought "man this would be awesome if it had this animus" rushed over to War Room because I couldn't remember for sure whether it was range SELF and then been disappointed.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 31, 2018 22:37:14 GMT
Honestly I don't think that our heavies being expensive really contributes to our lights not being played much. There are heaps of Troll lists out there running heavies. The main reasons why our lights are not being played are: 1) They are overcosted for what they do such as the Impaler and Slag Trolls. 2) With I think only one exception, their animi are RNG SELF so they cannot buff friendly models at all. 3)Since they do not buff friendly models they should be able to get a decent amount of work done each turn, which considering they only have ROF1 on their ranges attacks, leaves a lot to be desired. In the majority of every Troll list you have 12 points for the stone and 15 for the Mauler. 25% of your list is basically predetermined. You're also almost always going to want either an Earthborn or a Bomber (or another heavy). So you're looking at 41-46 of your ~105 total being taken by heavies and the stone. I know there are lists that don't take exactly that but the vast majority of lists that are either posted on here or FB or that I see pop up in tournaments have this basic formula. And I'm not saying that any of those models are bad, they're all pretty great models but they take a bunch of space in your list. If you're making a SotN list you've probably got 20 points tied up in bears, plus another 16-21 tied in a unit of champs. The points disappear really quick when you started out with 40% of your points locked up right off the bat. Finding room for a light or two is just hard, specially when outside of PoD they don't contribute to free points. Hell Horthol fits into the same spot. He's a perfectly good model I just almost never have room for an 8 point model that isn't contributing to free points and isn't a heavy. And even if I do find space for a light they still require support to be good. I can toss a Charger into any Cygnar list and for the cost of one focus it'll contribute in virtually every game. If I want any of the Troll lights to contribute I have to give them "stuff", whether it's just the stone buff or Rage or whatever. They add complexity and activation considerations when I already have plenty of that. I'd much prefer if they either provided utility or were much more self-sufficient (but didn't accept as much from the outside). Take away Thrown (and compensate in other ways of course) from the Impaler so his gun can't become Pow 17-19 and now it's much more flexible when I can activate him and get stuff done. I 100% agree about the lights and their animus'. I don't know how many times I've thought about a model and thought "man this would be awesome if it had this animus" rushed over to War Room because I couldn't remember for sure whether it was range SELF and then been disappointed. If you're taking max stone and a mauler in every list you're doing it wrong Start looking at min stone options, Rok and the colossals.
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Post by disgruntledwargamer on Sept 1, 2018 9:25:13 GMT
In the majority of every Troll list you have 12 points for the stone and 15 for the Mauler. 25% of your list is basically predetermined. You're also almost always going to want either an Earthborn or a Bomber (or another heavy). So you're looking at 41-46 of your ~105 total being taken by heavies and the stone. I know there are lists that don't take exactly that but the vast majority of lists that are either posted on here or FB or that I see pop up in tournaments have this basic formula. If you're making a SotN list you've probably got 20 points tied up in bears, plus another 16-21 tied in a unit of champs. The points disappear really quick when you started out with 40% of your points locked up right off the bat. Finding room for a light or two is just hard, specially when outside of PoD they don't contribute to free points. Hell Horthol fits into the same spot. He's a perfectly good model I just almost never have room for an 8 point model that isn't contributing to free points and isn't a heavy. I think it is a result of the CID. Other factions have the same issue. There has only been one real troll CID. So it kind of feels like sotn is the best way to play. 56 Troll lists at WTC, 30 sotn, 1 impaler, 2 ice trolls, 2 storm trolls, 5 basher, 6 bouncer, 7 pyre, 8 winter, 9 rok, 11 axer, 16 bomber, 35 mauler... Krielstone 29 max, 27 min Horthol 5? Longriders 9 min, 7 max. Yup. Fitting in horthol is hard. Boosted impact attacks aren't always a need in the list. Mauler shows up a bit more than half the time, but a bunch don't need him either. It's like each has a reason to be in the lists. I don't think the heavies are the cause of lights not showing up. They suffer the same problem the lights do, albeit the ebdt and mauler are super popular. I think the issue is that infantry are necessary. And because of that, you have to take infantry answers. And, because there are a ton of options, I see a myriad of solutions, but the bears and fire eaters are probably top of the list (in part because sotn is such a good theme). Someone made a claim that circle was being played like it were a limited faction. Well, save a few outliers, i think in competitive play, trolls are also being played like a limited faction. Until mk3 matures a bit, it will proba ly continue that way, but eventually it should level out. As for the impaler, we should watch that Andy Garrard Grim1 SotN list to see what happens there.
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Post by disgruntledwargamer on Sept 1, 2018 9:41:07 GMT
conflictchamber.com/#c7501b_-0G59jn9DiR0ijqfF6Rj20ki-iZiZezez___-0Gj1c6iXjq6GfJ0ki-iZezj4i_iSbKcCTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North [Grim 1] Grim Angus [+29] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Troll Impaler [11] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Troll Whelps [4] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Bear Handlers & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Bear Handlers & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] How about this WTC list? No bomber! Impaler? My first notion is the fire eaters and battle bears take the place of the bomber. They hit the infantry with sprays instead of blasts, and the pow 12 boosted sprays probably are more effective than pow 8 blast damage, especially vs cygnar trenchers. With no need for bomber, we turn to the 11 pointer for far strike. Then those big 3 heavies can hit 5+3+1+2 for 11" move on a charge and that makes 13" threat with brawler. 14" on the EBDT maybe? Neat. But if you dont need long range heavies, then how about a 12" knockdown gun for those heavies? Good times. Maybe this guy has something. Sure, 11 points is a tall price to help grim do grim things.. but in this list? Why not?
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Post by moridamn on Sept 1, 2018 12:33:09 GMT
I feel like just giving him Mat6 and critical pitch on his melee weapon would be enough to see him played. It would bring his melee up to the same levels as the Axer and the Bouncer and critical pitch isn't a super huge buff, but it be something trolls don't have yet.
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