bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
|
Post by bluebeard on Aug 30, 2018 1:41:25 GMT
So I was finishing up the last few details of my MK and glanced over at my shelf and saw my Impalers, then a twinge of sadness came over me. They look so good and I really want to fit them in a list, but can't seem to justify their 11pt cost. Anyone have decent list with these guys included?
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 30, 2018 5:25:43 GMT
They are the most over-costed warbeast in all of Hordes. A Bomber is 3 points less than 2x Impalers yet completely superior in almost every way. I would never consider an Impaler unless I was playing one of the Madraks in Band of Heroes with a Mauler and a Chronicler. Even then, a Bomber with an Axer or Bouncer for 28 or 29 points is probably better than a Mauler and Impaler for 26.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Aug 30, 2018 12:14:03 GMT
Yea. No. They're just pretty awful for that point cost. Things that cost less than an Impaler: Firefly, Ace, Charger, basically any light (and at least one heavy) in Menoth, Raek, etc etc..... It's a long list and he offers no great leaps of ability over much of anything. Maybe he gets touched in next CID for Trolls, maybe we just keep taking Bomber, it's not the worst thing after all. Here's the thing.
He's in the battlebox and that battlebox needs to be 0 points.
If you are PP you have painted yourself into a corner, your options are:
- Increase the cost of the Bouncer or Axer, which would be sad, because they aren't worth it. - Reduce the Warbeast points on Ragnor which is kind of sad, because he doesn't see play as it is. - Keep the Impaler the same points and buff it. Rate of fire 2 maybe?
See it's not as easy to fix as we thing.
|
|
bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
|
Post by bluebeard on Aug 30, 2018 13:57:44 GMT
I would like to see an increase to p+s to 14. Possibly reload, but that may be too much.
I like how my impalers look, and it would be nice to see them on the table once more. I do like the idea of having them with some champs and a chronicler. Could be great synergy there.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Aug 30, 2018 14:15:16 GMT
I would like to see an increase to p+s to 14. Possibly reload, but that may be too much. I like how my impalers look, and it would be nice to see them on the table once more. I do like the idea of having them with some champs and a chronicler. Could be great synergy there. I'm not sure it would be worth taking even with higher P+S. It's already pow18 shots with stone and rage.
If you give it an extra shot it runs into issues with boosts.
I think it might be worth 11 points if you gave it reload 1 and Powerful attack or if you made the weapon slam instead of crit slam.
It's very hard to justify for 11 points though. It wouldn't get taken at 10 points. I think it maybe would at 9.
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Aug 30, 2018 14:22:21 GMT
The Ice troll shows nicely what the impalers cost should be at. And like the nephilin bolt thrower, push and critical knockdown would be much better.
|
|
|
Post by disgruntledwargamer on Aug 30, 2018 15:12:34 GMT
I have found the 19 points for the bomber troll to be a bit too much in some lists. And often, those are the lists where I really really want snipe. So in goes the single Impaler. Often, it's in Kriel Company, and I have enough AOE troop killers and sprays that a bomber troll is left with nothing to throw bombs at. I mean, it only has a maximum gun range of 12", and even though it is throwing the bombs, a STR bump doesn't give it anything. I sure wouldn't mind an extra 0.5" range on the threat for each point of STR. Is it weird that the weaker warbeasts can throw spears further than the bomber can chuck a bomb? I guess spears don't weigh much?
But I digress. With Gunny, the bomber often falls out of the list for Dozer, and the Impaler fills the far strike gap. I know it falls one point short, but we don't have a 12 point shooter, or two 6 pointers, or a 5 and 7, and so on.
War Room Army
Trollblood - gun
Theme: Kriel Company 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Captain Gunnbjorn - WB: +28 - Dozer & Smigg - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Troll Impaler - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
War Wagon - PC: 16
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 0
Pyg Lookouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 7 Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3 Pyg Bushwhackers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Pyg Bushwhacker Officer & Mortar - Officer & Mortar Pyg: 5 Scattergunners - Leader & 9 Grunts: 14 - Scattergunner Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Pummeler Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0 Thumper Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
THEME: Kriel Company ---
GENERATED : 08/30/2018 07:58:17 BUILD ID : 2067.18-06-10
Now I really think we lost out with Snipe being overcosted. It feels appropriately costed for a spell that we could place on another model, but it is a little much for self only. I don't mean it costs too much fury, but it costs too many points on the warbeast. But in this example, gunny likes snipe. But he often keeps it running on whackers or wagon. The gun crews like it too, so Impaler's far strike helps gunny reach 16" with his bazooka.
|
|
|
Post by disgruntledwargamer on Aug 30, 2018 15:40:32 GMT
The problem isn't the Impalers by themselves... it is the entire chassis (Impaler, Axer, Bouncer).
What is wrong with the models is they just don't act the way they look.
Look at the armor on those guys! The bouncer is wearing full plate, the axer a little less, and impaler hardly any. So why are they all ARM 17? Yes, the bouncer gets his shield. But why not Bouncer 18, Axer 16, Impaler 15? Then, modify their defense to match. Bouncer and Axer 12, Impaler 13. Why? To give Set Defense a valuable role, and to further differentiate the model roles.
Now look at he fighting stats. The axer MAT 6. Good. He fights infantry with that big thresher axe. Bouncer Mat 6? Neat. I don't often get him in fighting range, but I guess he can hit stuff. I would actually be cool at MAT 5 if I could have a P&S 13 on that ball & chain. Now Impaler...MAT 5 RAT 5? I am almost ok with the meh RAT, because I will almost always boost, fishing for thise crit smites, and almost always be after Def 12 jacks. So what would be nice is RoF 2. Not reload.
For 11 points, a drop in ARM, buff in DEF and ROF, you then have a piece that can threat actual presence in a zone, with a DEF 13 (up to 15 vs charges and slams) and a gun that can get two chances for that crit (1 for far strike, 1 for boosted attack, 1 for boosted attack).
Give me that, and they would find a place in my army a bit more often.
|
|
|
Post by disgruntledwargamer on Aug 30, 2018 16:13:31 GMT
My turn to troll the trollbloods a bit... Anyone have decent list with these guys included? Excellent trolling. Good lists are subjective, but at the beginning of the ghost fleet deal, I ran one in BoH with Madrak3 for far strike on the spear and because my infantry was good enough at killing infantry that I didn't need a bomber contributing. Also, the bomber didnt get RFP. They are the most over-costed warbeast in all of Hordes. A Bomber is 3 points less than 2x Impalers yet completely superior in almost every way. Another good Troll. I genuinely love this forum because I like to write back to inflammatory statements seriously though, every piece has its niche, right? Sure the bomber has good blasts, but do you always need it? (That's me trolling back)... Things that cost less than an Impaler: Firefly, Ace, Charger, basically any light (and at least one heavy) in Menoth, Raek, etc etc..... Troll just went cross-faction comparison! Okay, I used to look at it that way. But after the CIDs and new faction releases, I can't disagree more with cross faction comparisons. Nothing will make you more salty. Remember that in each of those instances, those light jacks come with different abilities and different warcasters to stack abilities on top. They fit different roles in those factions. What role does the impaler fit? Does it do it well? What fits a similar role in trollbloods? Have you needed a set defense based light warbeast in the list? Why isnt the impaler better at preventing those charges? And there was a comparison to ice troll again (as well as cross faction neph). The ice troll fits a niche. It is a hard hitter that synergizes well in SotN. Would you take it out of SotN.? It doesnt offer much to grim, gunny or jarl. It has good competition in the SotN with pyre and storm troll. Similar costs and ranges, and defensive tech to warlocks, or offensive with a select few warlocks. Maybe you take pyre instead of ice because you can't light fire eaters? Point is, every troll should have its place, and the obvious answer to point costing is damage output. But this game has layers of nuance that go beyond raw damage, and that is why subtle changes to not just the impaler, but other pieces that often run in the same theme can bring it to a useful position and back onto the table.
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Aug 30, 2018 19:22:07 GMT
The Ice troll shows nicely what the impalers cost should be at. And like the nephilin bolt thrower, push and critical knockdown would be much better. Yeah the Ice Troll is so much better than the Impaler due to: Pathfinder, +2" RNG, +1 MAT, 2 points cheaper and also Immunity:Cold so it works in far more lists. In contrast the Impaler is overcosted, has to max out on fury to have a comparable range to the Ice Troll, is only MAT5 and has Set Defense for some weird reason. It needs a complete overhaul at this point to even by worth considering putting it in a list.
|
|
joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
|
Post by joedj on Aug 30, 2018 19:56:22 GMT
He's got a quiver of spears FFS! Reload[1] is reasonable given the Fury 3 stat <-to animi or boost or buy? hmmmm... MAT 6 is also a reasonable change/gain for an 11 point model 'investment'. It's not like he's gonna be spammed in a list [Gunny says 'What?!']
Keep the points the same for BB reasons.
For giggles, give him Vet Leader [Thumper]- "Let me show you how to slam! Um, ok, maybe THIS time..." (no impact on BB and silly KC theme buff)
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Aug 30, 2018 22:10:36 GMT
He's got a quiver of spears FFS! Reload[1] is reasonable given the Fury 3 stat <-to animi or boost or buy? hmmmm... MAT 6 is also a reasonable change/gain for an 11 point model 'investment'. It's not like he's gonna be spammed in a list [Gunny says 'What?!'] Keep the points the same for BB reasons. For giggles, give him Vet Leader [Thumper]- "Let me show you how to slam! Um, ok, maybe THIS time..." (no impact on BB and silly KC theme buff) I think even with those changes he would still be overpriced. I would like to see him drop down to at least 10 points with those changes. Also Reload 1 is crap, how about just ROF2 instead?
|
|
joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
|
Post by joedj on Aug 30, 2018 22:41:44 GMT
He's got a quiver of spears FFS! Reload[1] is reasonable given the Fury 3 stat <-to animi or boost or buy? hmmmm... MAT 6 is also a reasonable change/gain for an 11 point model 'investment'. It's not like he's gonna be spammed in a list [Gunny says 'What?!'] Keep the points the same for BB reasons. For giggles, give him Vet Leader [Thumper]- "Let me show you how to slam! Um, ok, maybe THIS time..." (no impact on BB and silly KC theme buff) I think even with those changes he would still be overpriced. I would like to see him drop down to at least 10 points with those changes. Also Reload 1 is crap, how about just ROF2 instead? What do you think this faction is, Cygnar?!! Fluff-wise, he's gotta Fury-ously pull another spear from his quiver to hurl. Of course with the changes I suggest, he's shoehorned into a Gunny-skew model (Snipe/Guided Fire/2x boosted damage rolls), or maybe Grim2.
|
|
cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
|
Post by cuberic on Aug 30, 2018 23:08:52 GMT
It should be mat 6 at the minimum. It would fun to give it straight up slam on the weapon. Would that make it 11 points? Not yet in my opinion, but it would finally have a role as a strong control piece.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Aug 31, 2018 2:59:58 GMT
I say give him flat RoF 2 and Powerful attack.
|
|