|
Post by punk on Aug 29, 2018 19:19:59 GMT
Mhmm- more thought...Satyrs gain Tharn label
|
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
|
Post by chuggyg on Aug 29, 2018 19:24:40 GMT
The storm raptor's really strong as a ranged piece that can one-round just about anything heavy sized or smaller in melee as a backup, but the direction is just so incredibly boring. It's basically exactly what the archangel is! The upside is you can cast Sky Fire for free in CoTW, then you get a rat 8 pow 16 gun with a reload and 3 total boosts. Then you can reposition 3" away. I'd really rather have sky fire be built straight in to the beast and have a different animus, though.
Shadowhorn Satyr is the real winner here. 11 points for a def 13 set defense with dodge is heckin good. Add in a pretty long non-linear walk+jump threat (12") that now has pathfinder... Kaya3 is going to be pretty nasty going forward.
|
|
|
Post by punk on Aug 29, 2018 20:02:59 GMT
No Gheto or Satyr Tharn label...
PPS_Pagani #11.4 PPS_Pagani commented Today, 03:55 PM It is very unlikely that there would be a "Tharn" typed war beast.
Oh well-
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Aug 29, 2018 20:48:30 GMT
The storm raptor's really strong as a ranged piece that can one-round just about anything heavy sized or smaller in melee as a backup, but the direction is just so incredibly boring. It's basically exactly what the archangel is! The upside is you can cast Sky Fire for free in CoTW, then you get a rat 8 pow 16 gun with a reload and 3 total boosts. Then you can reposition 3" away. I'd really rather have sky fire be built straight in to the beast and have a different animus, though. Shadowhorn Satyr is the real winner here. 11 points for a def 13 set defense with dodge is heckin good. Add in a pretty long non-linear walk+jump threat (12") that now has pathfinder... Kaya3 is going to be pretty nasty going forward. But can the storm raptor one round about anything? I just don't see it, because the SR tops out at PS18 (and I don't count primal or caster support in the equation as you are paying 37 points for the model). In fact, that is probably my biggest complaint about the current chassis. He is great at shooting, and I think his existing shooting is probably fine (although ROF 2 would make him more worth his points IMO). In melee, however, he is really lacking IMO. He is more than the cost of 2 Warpwolf Stalkers, but he barely puts out more damage than a single Warpwolf stalker. For 37 points that just feels unacceptable. He should be minimum PS19 on the beak I think, and probably be another point or 2 cheaper.
|
|
envoy
Read Page 5
Posts: 21
|
Post by envoy on Aug 29, 2018 21:08:46 GMT
Blood pack do seem more exciting to me now. I'm not registered for CID, but I assume that "range and power increase" means that they're now range 12, pow 14? Couple that with repo 3 and you can be 15" away from what you shot at. They look like heavy infantry killers to me, or at least chippers. They do worthwhile damage to lighter-armor heavies as well. Neither of those roles requires too high an accuracy. How wrong am I?
Very excited about beast changes.
What is the overall feel of the Tharn supposed to be? Judging from everything, it would seem that it's "hard-hitting, fast but fragile, yet with a certain animal resilience." Also hard to pin down: adding parry to BTs and Jump to woof riders seems to solidify this.
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Aug 29, 2018 22:09:52 GMT
Blood pack do seem more exciting to me now. I'm not registered for CID, but I assume that "range and power increase" means that they're now range 12, pow 14? Couple that with repo 3 and you can be 15" away from what you shot at. They look like heavy infantry killers to me, or at least chippers. They do worthwhile damage to lighter-armor heavies as well. Neither of those roles requires too high an accuracy. How wrong am I? Very excited about beast changes. What is the overall feel of the Tharn supposed to be? Judging from everything, it would seem that it's "hard-hitting, fast but fragile, yet with a certain animal resilience." Also hard to pin down: adding parry to BTs and Jump to woof riders seems to solidify this. You are right on about Blood Pack. They are 15 points for 6 shots at range 12 and PS14 with repo3 and arcing fire. That's definitely not bad, I just don't know if they are compelling when compared to the other options in the theme. Although I will say they are more interesting now then they looked with the bushwack rule. They do feel like they have some sick synergy with Morv2 which is where I liked them before.
I think your description of the tharn seems about right. I might exchange the hard hitting for "kills infantry / solos dead", but the other notes seem correct. Outside of Iona and a few other casters the theme will struggle with armour a bit still. It is better than it used to be, especially with the changes to Ravagers, but I am still wary of no true anti Arm option in the theme. At least outside of beasts with Primal that is.
|
|
envoy
Read Page 5
Posts: 21
|
Post by envoy on Aug 29, 2018 22:16:39 GMT
True. However, we are seeing a rise of heavy infantry with gators, MoW, primal terrors and the like. Those seem like targets that Tharn want to see. Am I right?
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Aug 30, 2018 0:50:42 GMT
True. However, we are seeing a rise of heavy infantry with gators, MoW, primal terrors and the like. Those seem like targets that Tharn want to see. Am I right? First impression, yes, that is probably a good opponent for Tharn. We certainly will have a lot of ways to damage armor (bloodtrackers, potentially weavers on the charge, Ravagers, and Wolf Riders). I am just not sold on them doing consistent enough damage to beat an arm skew like Gaspy 9 slayers. Heavy infantry is probably a decent middle ground that they can excel against. I am planning to test out a Morv2 tharn list this weekend and one of my potential opponents plays Legion. Maybe I can coax him into a primal terrors heavy infantry list vs my list.
|
|
|
Post by redcathal on Aug 30, 2018 9:08:38 GMT
- Bridget and what's his name: Not sure why I would ever spend 8pts on these two. If somebody has inspiration to share I'd love to see it. Brighid and Caul: In ideal caster independent circumstances against their prey, with gang and Caul loaded up with corpses, the lowest pow attack they can put into it is a pow 12 WM assault shot, the highest is a POW19 charge with the possibilty of buying another 3 POW17s. Seems legit dunno if it'll kill a heavy but sounds like it'll cripple it considering the grievous wounds. Oh and they'll be MAT11. Assuming the worst so no prey, no gang, no corpses (which begs the question of why not), its still a POW10 assault, a POW9 WM and a pow 15 Charge into mulitple targets. Definitely not as durable as the Death Wolves but they're not trivially removed with DEF16 stealth on Brighid with her brother able to shield guard her if needed and ARM17 8 boxes on Caul with rapid healing and tough. Plus a small scoring unit. I'd say they're worth testing.
|
|
|
Post by challenger on Aug 30, 2018 11:15:49 GMT
Challenger's hot takes: Winners- Tharn Ravagers - As a generalist shock trooper unit they have really hit the mark. I'm willing to say they're perfect in one go with no changes needed positively or negatively. Its not like they were far from being perfect to begin with, but Rapid healing, cost reduction, and brutal charge are all great!
- Blood trackers and Nuala - Another unit i think is currently perfect. they have some pretty big downsides (very low arm, very low range weapons) that are counter balanced by their strengths of having parry, having a great output and reposition, and being able to prey swap.
- Loki - Loki, my sweet loki, finally in a theme force. This makes me so happy.
- Blood Shaman - This caster attachment is monstrous in a good way. Very happy with where shes at. How do you single handedly remove the Primal tax and free casters from the shackles of having to take a model with primal, while still letting primal do what its always done? This girl.
- Many of the Circle Warbeasts - Point reductions and pathfinder is great.
- Death Wolves (Strictly in Tharn) - gaining AD is just nice. They're only a good unit when you play them in Tharn to begin with corpses imo, but in that situation they are great
- Wolf Rider Champion - She's a pretty cool counter punch model who can jump behind models that have committed into your lines and do a lot of damage. I really like her.
- Shaman & White Mane - Tharn support gets better
The Losers- Wolf Riders - They're pretty bad right now. At the end of the day they fill no unique roll, are extremely squishy, and their output is bad. 20pts is insane for this unit. i'm very disappointed they abandoned the backstab rule
- Storm Raptor - A lot of work still needs to be done on this model, a lot.
- Brigid and Caul - a unit i want to love but can't. Considering how clunky they are it seems like you just have to kill Brigid and Caul is useless at that point. He becomes a white mane without any of the reasons you bring a white mane.
i have some more thoughts on other models, if they're not included in that list i basically dont hate them but i dont rate them
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 30, 2018 12:17:34 GMT
The storm raptor is becoming a copy of the Archangel with slightly funkier rules... The Animus still doesn't match the gun range. Has to pay for reload. Now, I do not want it to actually be a copy. But it's not that far off.
Wolf riders need to be p+s 10 or 11 on the throw and stabby-stab.
Most everything else is within some realm of possibility for a CID first pass. But the amount of healing rules is kinda bonkers.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 30, 2018 12:47:01 GMT
I think Brigid and Caul pose a tough question design wise.
Their max potential damage output is excellent for 8 points, and their defensive stats are very good as well. However if you lose Brigid then Caul just becomes so much less potent, so they are a massive liability at the same time. How do you balance potential massive pay-off with massive liability?
I don't think 7 points would break them,(they are a character unit so cannot be spammed), but it would make them pretty much an auto-include (for me at least)
|
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
|
Post by chuggyg on Aug 30, 2018 13:13:59 GMT
The storm raptor's really strong as a ranged piece that can one-round just about anything heavy sized or smaller in melee as a backup, but the direction is just so incredibly boring. It's basically exactly what the archangel is! The upside is you can cast Sky Fire for free in CoTW, then you get a rat 8 pow 16 gun with a reload and 3 total boosts. Then you can reposition 3" away. I'd really rather have sky fire be built straight in to the beast and have a different animus, though. Shadowhorn Satyr is the real winner here. 11 points for a def 13 set defense with dodge is heckin good. Add in a pretty long non-linear walk+jump threat (12") that now has pathfinder... Kaya3 is going to be pretty nasty going forward. But can the storm raptor one round about anything? I just don't see it, because the SR tops out at PS18 (and I don't count primal or caster support in the equation as you are paying 37 points for the model). In fact, that is probably my biggest complaint about the current chassis. He is great at shooting, and I think his existing shooting is probably fine (although ROF 2 would make him more worth his points IMO). In melee, however, he is really lacking IMO. He is more than the cost of 2 Warpwolf Stalkers, but he barely puts out more damage than a single Warpwolf stalker. For 37 points that just feels unacceptable. He should be minimum PS19 on the beak I think, and probably be another point or 2 cheaper. There's no colossal or gargantuan in the game where being supported by the caster or army isn't part of the equation. If your caster isn't supporting a model that is 1/3 of your army, you're bringing the wrong caster. I suppose you can argue the blightbringer as an exception, since he's a support model himself, but the rest of them are really lackluster in a vacuum (whereas the blightbringer is lackluster without the right army around it). I will concede that the army support for a storm raptor is basically non-existent, which I think is the real problem with it. With the casters that can support a Raptor properly (Kromac2, Tanith, Kaya3 are the main ones), its damage output in melee gets pretty high pretty quickly. Being that its melee output is a secondary function, I really don't think there's an issue with it in that regard. A bump in defensive stats (Def, Arm, or Boxes) and a bit more Fury efficiency is really all it needs.
|
|
|
Post by challenger on Aug 30, 2018 13:48:30 GMT
But can the storm raptor one round about anything? I just don't see it, because the SR tops out at PS18 (and I don't count primal or caster support in the equation as you are paying 37 points for the model). In fact, that is probably my biggest complaint about the current chassis. He is great at shooting, and I think his existing shooting is probably fine (although ROF 2 would make him more worth his points IMO). In melee, however, he is really lacking IMO. He is more than the cost of 2 Warpwolf Stalkers, but he barely puts out more damage than a single Warpwolf stalker. For 37 points that just feels unacceptable. He should be minimum PS19 on the beak I think, and probably be another point or 2 cheaper. There's no colossal or gargantuan in the game where being supported by the caster or army isn't part of the equation. If your caster isn't supporting a model that is 1/3 of your army, you're bringing the wrong caster. I suppose you can argue the blightbringer as an exception, since he's a support model himself, but the rest of them are really lackluster in a vacuum (whereas the blightbringer is lackluster without the right army around it). I will concede that the army support for a storm raptor is basically non-existent, which I think is the real problem with it. With the casters that can support a Raptor properly (Kromac2, Tanith, Kaya3 are the main ones), its damage output in melee gets pretty high pretty quickly. Being that its melee output is a secondary function, I really don't think there's an issue with it in that regard. A bump in defensive stats (Def, Arm, or Boxes) and a bit more Fury efficiency is really all it needs. The blightbringer is extremely cheap, and very well supported by Thagrosh1 who provides it a survivability buff (effectively ARM 21 due to Thags -2 STR aura) and he has a damage buff he can apply to it to send it in with Withering Ash + draconic blessing
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Aug 30, 2018 18:54:41 GMT
But can the storm raptor one round about anything? I just don't see it, because the SR tops out at PS18 (and I don't count primal or caster support in the equation as you are paying 37 points for the model). In fact, that is probably my biggest complaint about the current chassis. He is great at shooting, and I think his existing shooting is probably fine (although ROF 2 would make him more worth his points IMO). In melee, however, he is really lacking IMO. He is more than the cost of 2 Warpwolf Stalkers, but he barely puts out more damage than a single Warpwolf stalker. For 37 points that just feels unacceptable. He should be minimum PS19 on the beak I think, and probably be another point or 2 cheaper. There's no colossal or gargantuan in the game where being supported by the caster or army isn't part of the equation. If your caster isn't supporting a model that is 1/3 of your army, you're bringing the wrong caster. I suppose you can argue the blightbringer as an exception, since he's a support model himself, but the rest of them are really lackluster in a vacuum (whereas the blightbringer is lackluster without the right army around it). I will concede that the army support for a storm raptor is basically non-existent, which I think is the real problem with it. With the casters that can support a Raptor properly (Kromac2, Tanith, Kaya3 are the main ones), its damage output in melee gets pretty high pretty quickly. Being that its melee output is a secondary function, I really don't think there's an issue with it in that regard. A bump in defensive stats (Def, Arm, or Boxes) and a bit more Fury efficiency is really all it needs. I mean, I will concede the point about the caster needing to be factored in. That being said, how many other gargs or colossals are that pillow fisted. Not many, if any. When it comes down to it, my other big issue with the bird is his survivability. He is 37 points (one of the more expensive colossals after CID began) is only 12/18 with 50 boxes. That's extremely squishy. I hope his survivability increases or points reduce dramatically. If one of those things happens I feel pretty good with him. That being said, I will be testing him to see how he plays.
|
|