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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 27, 2017 11:43:45 GMT
That should probably get fixed
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 27, 2017 12:31:07 GMT
If it doesn't it'll still never see play. I'm not paying 18 points to get something worse than a gun carriage that puts out my own fires (which fuel cache WILL give me now), hits my own upkeeps, and occasionally makes a dude get a free attack.
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uman
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by uman on Apr 27, 2017 12:53:25 GMT
Yep. It is pretty clear that I am continuously underestimating how incredible we are at synergy and support, or PP is overestimating. I understand it is a big aspect of the fluff, but I don't see it happening reliably and economically on the table - which I think you should see if it really is a faction's play style.
One shot a bit better than a Reckoner, with a few potential POW10 bounces that are unboostable has been it's problem since MK3 started, not just the General jack-flavour of the edition. Zombie is very situational, but was in MK2 as well. The fiery push is now back, but again is usually a last hurrah move. Continuous affects are either Fire or corrosion, and the miracle is after the first test for expiry unless it was from friendlies - our jacks don't care overly and our infantry are already dead at that point by and large.
I don't see it's support outweighing it's lack of offensive power. In MK2 those aspects were more relevant and it also had more offensive power, and that was when it saw some play, with some casters in a less-jacky system.
I was really hyped when I heard CID was coming, and increased hit points was just a taste, but I won't be trading jacks or max. Units for a Vessel with only those tweaks.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 27, 2017 13:09:04 GMT
Bring that to CID. Copy your post right over there, if you can (or I can later if you don't have an account). It's high time we got some direct say on our levels of synergy not meaningfully outpacing anyone else's, and having THE discussion on THE support battle engine is the only time I can see it happening right now.
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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 27, 2017 14:52:08 GMT
Like it should either hit all upkeeps or it should hit only enemies but they can keep them if they do x. It should not be the worst of both worlds.
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 27, 2017 16:25:33 GMT
Did it get clarified if you strip your own upkeeps as well. It does sadly, but it's subject to getting changed of course. What we haven't had clarified is if we can boost Eruption of Faith.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 28, 2017 10:11:27 GMT
I'm thinking of punishing my opponents for spells. The first step that I have is a vessel of judgement and eEyris under pKreoss/eReznik or pFeora. I'm not sure it's viable, but I'm going to try it.
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Post by dicebedamned on Apr 28, 2017 12:18:16 GMT
Just read on the PoM Fb group that someone supposedly spoke to devs and the shot will now be D6-1 for RoF... I think it is a lie, but more RoF would certainly help.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 28, 2017 13:40:19 GMT
Just read on the PoM Fb group that someone supposedly spoke to devs and the shot will now be D6-1 for RoF... I think it is a lie, but more RoF would certainly help. Saw that too. I'll believe it when I see it.
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uman
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by uman on Apr 28, 2017 13:44:22 GMT
Bring that to CID. Copy your post right over there, if you can (or I can later if you don't have an account). It's high time we got some direct say on our levels of synergy not meaningfully outpacing anyone else's, and having THE discussion on THE support battle engine is the only time I can see it happening right now. Done, Brother Provengreil. My first CID post. Also went off on a few tangents with the comment functionality there... nifty.
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 28, 2017 14:07:08 GMT
Giving good feed back is the way the CID is supposed to work, over the coming weeks we'll get to see where that feed back takes us.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 28, 2017 14:30:29 GMT
Just read on the PoM Fb group that someone supposedly spoke to devs and the shot will now be D6-1 for RoF... I think it is a lie, but more RoF would certainly help. I could find no evidence of this on the CID forums.
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Post by telmerand on Apr 28, 2017 15:17:53 GMT
When I look at the Vessel, I have to look at it compared to the other engines and the meta.
-When I compare it to something like the Throne, I see a one shot gun that damages itself. That is compared to a more hardy engine with three initials of greater pow that each allow it to cast spells (spells which the vessel would stare at and do nothing, and actions the vessel would need to cut itself for).
-When I compare it to something like the Celestial Fulcrum, it has 1/3 the fire power and weaker support features - all of them cutting itself while no other engine does (well the meat thresher does for insane speed).
Even comparing it to our huge book - I don't feel the support capabilities are any better, for 4x the cost. Many of our casters have anti-magic capabilities already - if it's clinch, enemies can maintain their upkeeps. We are a buff faction with many upkeeps, so it's not ideal, but more so its a pretty boring ability in a faction that already has ignore magic in a dozen places. With bless on half everything, is it even needed in half the cases? One could say that you then do not need to use the ability, don't need to damage your engine, but then how many other engines have abilities that are just *off* 90% of the time? If it's not being used (directly or as a threat) then it is not functional.
-When I compare it to the Siege Crawler, I see 1/4 the firepower at range. I see weaker support, and let me talk about that at length. The vessel lets one trooper run off and attack something, no charge no boost, then it's gone....the siege crawler gets to put out infinite soul tokens as well as a fringe thing. We are in a meta with fewer troopers - and in a lotta cases you won't have the ideal trooper for the vessel (Knight Exemplar buffed) but rather you'd see choirs/sunburst crewmembers/flameguard - all of these with only jacks to target in many instances and doing nada. For that, your engine takes 1-3 damage, while for no damage the Crawler pops out 1-3 troopers who can then go on to rock for perhaps multiple turns, great for shooters and tarpits...while the vessels ability is worthless for ranged and tarpits. That on a hardier frame that can do damage to jacks at range and in melee.
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What I'd like to see?
It's themed around judgement and it does not feel like that, not in the way the Meat Thresher feels like it threshes meat. It feels like it has a large lack of internal synergy (rather like Una 1 and the ignore forests from three different sources). For clarity and ease of reading I'll just keep it in bullet points.
- As the vessel is a reliquary fueled by Menite faith, I'd like to see it empowered by friendly units within it's cmd radius (which should be 10). This bonus should cap at three units and it should feel underpowered at one unit. Even in jack heavy lists you could see Rovhan and Co + a Choir, it should feel decent with two units. Thus, by silencing the voice of the Menites, you could silence their wrath. It's strength in lists built for it would still follow a diminishing curve much akin to how Warlocks operate as beasts die.
- The way in which it visits its wrath should be considered. I think allowing warrior models to attack is a good one - but there needs to be more encouragement to run them, and synergy is nice too. If it needs to stay near units to get powered up, it will have more reason to use its flame blast power, so that's a positive as well. I don't feel the clearing of spells is in theme for a Vessel of Judgement and I'd toss that out. In it's place I'd create a fury reservoir that is fueled by nearby units (within cmd) that goes up to 3 (maybe more in a theme force that's infantry focused - maybe Exemplar). This fury reservoir is tapped for all of its powers (flame blast, warrior model counter attacks) but I'd also allow it a new power. It has the power to enforce an enemy reroll (now *that* is judgment, for both parties, as the roll can still be as bad or worse - does the Creator will your death?). I would also give it's weapon reload (2) to be fueled by fury, removing the bounce effect if needs be. The reload is simply to give it something to do in more ranged lists and should not be as clinch as enforcing enemy rerolls.
This encourages it to get deep into the mix and act as a support engine with synergies internally and externally. It gives some life to its flame aura power, which as has been noted, is a last hurrah currently.
These changes are fairly minor but removes the self destruction clauses that add a hidden 2pt tax to the model as mechanics are needed to keep it going. If it is deemed that it is still too weak, I'd give tough to warrior models within 5 inches.
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rufus
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 3
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Post by rufus on Apr 28, 2017 22:59:07 GMT
One shot a bit better than a Reckoner, with a few potential POW10 bounces that are unboostable has been it's problem since MK3 started, not just the General jack-flavour of the edition. Admonisher damage rolls are boostable.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 29, 2017 1:31:05 GMT
Just spit balling, but would Doors having no limit but cost d6 damage be nice? I'd also like to see eruption be replaced with something else, maybe a tough aura?
P.S. The Legion in general doesn't seem to like the Throne m saying things like it lost boosting, is too expensive, or has bad stats. The appropriateness of these sentiments is up for debate, but I thought I'd share the thoughts from the other end of Immoren.
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