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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 13, 2017 17:27:05 GMT
Let's start a discussion: we know the Battle Engine CID will be starting in a few weeks, so what do you Menites want to see change in our beloved Vessel of Judgement?
Or looking at it differently, why aren't we seeing more of it on tables, and how would you change it?
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Post by Swampmist on Apr 13, 2017 17:44:09 GMT
all it needs is boxes. The Vessel is already great, and it's really only issue is many of our casters being a bit too melee-focused for it, and most of our ranged casters like their battle-groups. It's a strong boostable gun that doesn't require focus from the caster and is pretty survivable with mechaniks, the extra boxes will probably push it over the edge into serious viability.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 13, 2017 23:08:49 GMT
I agree with Swampmist. Boxes is probably all that it needs. Anything else is gravy.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 14, 2017 4:04:40 GMT
Go look at Skorne's Seige animantarax... and it costs less. The Vessal of Judgment suffers from serious Skornergy issues and only has 1 gun (even if it can bounce 3 times). It should gain a melee weapon or two, even if it's just for show, and the damage on its miracles should be removed. If they want to make the miracles cost something then give it the soul taker ability with the choice to use damage instead of souls.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 14, 2017 4:28:29 GMT
I actually think the Vessel is one of the best Battle Engines out there. Any changes to it should be relative to just how much the other get improved. But if we can make it even better.., I guess I won't complain.
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Post by welkan996 on Apr 14, 2017 7:05:02 GMT
So since one of the across the board changes that they're doing to all battle engines is increasing the amount of boxes on each one the one extra thing that I would like to see out of the VoJ is adding a Reload [1]. It takes D3 damage for an additional shot. Other than that I really do like everything that it can do and I feel as though its ALMOST at the wide use level.
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Post by tiberius on Apr 14, 2017 14:06:00 GMT
I play against the vessel regularly and used correctly it is a very powerful control and attrition piece with a long range magic gun that hits multiple targets. It is already great for its cost, though if all the other battle engines are getting more boxes, it should too. Its abilities are great, though I can see an argument for not having to damage itself for miracles.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Apr 14, 2017 17:26:50 GMT
Back in MkII, I wanted it to have an aura of fearlessness, because, c'mon, have you seen that thing? Now that fear doesn't exist, I'm not sure.
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Post by greyknightv6 on Apr 18, 2017 17:01:02 GMT
I've already expressed my requirements of the CID to Mr Pagani on twitter...
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Post by alanryan on Apr 19, 2017 2:06:03 GMT
i didn't think it "just need more boxes". yeah, box is most important, but VoJ is not best BE, and looks CO's BE's buff, i think "just more boxes VoJ" is much weaker than CO's BE, and, actually, CO has 20 or more times more champion than us on tournament, i think we need buff than CO much more VOJ have good ability, but weak on offensive power. only 1 shot pow 15 boost(and, may be but can't ever turn, 1 warrior's melee attack) is weaker than most other BE. i hope they give us 1 of these benefit:
rof 2(maybe too powerful so down power to 14) give 5 or 10 inch warrior model more survive, like +2 arm maybe, or denay spell and immune continue gain arcane votex, use d3 box, maybe only active 1 every turn give 1 or more unit +2 movement every turn
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 19, 2017 7:04:20 GMT
i didn't think it "just need more boxes". yeah, box is most important, but VoJ is not best BE, and looks CO's BE's buff, i think "just more boxes VoJ" is much weaker than CO's BE, and, actually, CO has 20 or more times more champion than us on tournament, i think we need buff than CO much more VOJ have good ability, but weak on offensive power. only 1 shot pow 15 boost(and, may be but can't ever turn, 1 warrior's melee attack) is weaker than most other BE. i hope they give us 1 of these benefit: rof 2(maybe too powerful so down power to 14) give 5 or 10 inch warrior model more survive, like +2 arm maybe, or denay spell and immune continue gain arcane votex, use d3 box, maybe only active 1 every turn give 1 or more unit +2 movement every turn I have a couple of questions for you, alanyan. Firstly, where are you getting the data for the number of champions that Circle has? I can find data data to support maybe 5 times the number of first place finishes, but not 20. Secondly, what do you mean by "Can't ever turn"? I can't find that rule on the card anywhere.
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Post by alanryan on Apr 19, 2017 8:51:03 GMT
i didn't think it "just need more boxes". yeah, box is most important, but VoJ is not best BE, and looks CO's BE's buff, i think "just more boxes VoJ" is much weaker than CO's BE, and, actually, CO has 20 or more times more champion than us on tournament, i think we need buff than CO much more VOJ have good ability, but weak on offensive power. only 1 shot pow 15 boost(and, may be but can't ever turn, 1 warrior's melee attack) is weaker than most other BE. i hope they give us 1 of these benefit: rof 2(maybe too powerful so down power to 14) give 5 or 10 inch warrior model more survive, like +2 arm maybe, or denay spell and immune continue gain arcane votex, use d3 box, maybe only active 1 every turn give 1 or more unit +2 movement every turn I have a couple of questions for you, alanyan. Firstly, where are you getting the data for the number of champions that Circle has? I can find data data to support maybe 5 times the number of first place finishes, but not 20. Secondly, what do you mean by "Can't ever turn"? I can't find that rule on the card anywhere. you could use every turn in rule, but you can't use every turn because it's need your oppenant trigger. i didn't have lots data, in www.discountgamesinc.com pom have 1 solo champion and Co have 8, and I know maybe 3 or 4 more CO champion not log in there. certainly, you could said, i am talk nonsense,yeah i am overstate, CO only have 5 time or 10 times than us,but i didnt think we could say so we are fine, we needn't more buff
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 19, 2017 10:54:46 GMT
I have a couple of questions for you, alanyan. Firstly, where are you getting the data for the number of champions that Circle has? I can find data data to support maybe 5 times the number of first place finishes, but not 20. Secondly, what do you mean by "Can't ever turn"? I can't find that rule on the card anywhere. you could use every turn in rule, but you can't use every turn because it's need your oppenant trigger. i didn't have lots data, in www.discountgamesinc.com pom have 1 solo champion and Co have 8, and I know maybe 3 or 4 more CO champion not log in there. certainly, you could said, i am talk nonsense,yeah i am overstate, CO only have 5 time or 10 times than us,but i didnt think we could say so we are fine, we needn't more buff Using every rule in a turn isn't essential. Cleansing aura is a god way to bully hordes players without ever using it, for example. As for the number of champions circle have compared to Protectorate, it's worth noting that the winner of both the Las Vegas Open Masters and Las Vegas Open Iron Gauntlet was using Una2 who was nerfed a few days later. Wormwood was nerfed and a few days before and is also in a great many lists.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 19, 2017 14:00:15 GMT
If we're talking about just Battle Engines,I am of the opinion that tournament stats don't matter, since nobody is taking them anyways. Circle has been taking home major tourneys by the strength of their players and key pieces that are just powerful.
I think when it comes down to it that Battle Engine changes are less "Faction X has to be as powerful as Faction Y, when Faction Y is to the right of the power curve" and more of "How can we make BE's a viable choice over an equivalent points amount of infantry/armour?"
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 19, 2017 17:31:55 GMT
Honestly I would like to see it gain more boxes and maybe some more buff utility. Give it more abilities that it can hurt itself for.
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