twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179 
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Post by twity on Aug 22, 2018 15:40:44 GMT
I have been trying to pair my Testament Exemplar list, and have landed on building a CM list with Kreoss1. While the popular thought seems to be running Jack heavy in EI, I think Kreoss prefers CM simply because he has purification. I want to build the list around 1.) Sevy0 powering some Ranged Jacks 2.) Avatar with DW being up in front and bringing some much-needed focus efficiency to Kreoss1. Before you guys get to up in arms about the Avatar, I have tested him a good bit in CM with K1 and he works well 3.) The Judicator and Redeemers being extremely strong with K1 An example list would be conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0d0ym3lV2elM1G1G3t3z3z2_m2Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might [Kreoss 1] High Exemplar Kreoss [+29] - Fire of Salvation [14] - Judicator [34] Avatar of Menoth [20] Scrutator Potentate Severius [0(6)] - Redeemer [11] - Redeemer [11] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard [9] I feel like I need Juviah because he provides an all-important assassination threat with the feat, and Sev0/Judcator appreciate a shield guard. However that 9 points is making it difficult to get everything I want (like a full unit of choir). The vassals work extremely well in concert with Avatar (keeping him fully loaded and hard to kill with DW). A varient might be conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0d0ym3lV2elUlUlM1G1G3t3t3z3z30Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might [Kreoss 1] High Exemplar Kreoss [+29] - Fire of Salvation [14] - Judicator [34] Avatar of Menoth [20] Exemplar Warder [0(5)] Exemplar Warder [0(5)] Scrutator Potentate Severius [0(6)] - Redeemer [11] - Redeemer [11] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal Mechanik [1] Vassal of Menoth [3] Vassal of Menoth [3] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Now we have a full choir and a warder (acting like an upgraded honor guard) for each caster. Opponents with cloud walls and stealth can play more uppity with their casters. I also gained a mechanic, who is pretty invaluable. The addition of the warders makes the gun line more resilient in scenario (in my opinion) as well. |
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Post by marijnh on Aug 23, 2018 0:53:47 GMT
Personally I find it difficult to justify both Fire of Salvation and the Avatar in this list. The judicator brings a lot of melee power already; I really do not think you need 2 expensive dedicated melee warjacks.
Additionally, I firmly believe Kreoss1 could use a unit in his line up, regardless of theme. I think swapping un a unit of Idrians+ua as your merc unit, the list gains a lot more flexibility.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 23, 2018 11:47:55 GMT
Also pow 11 are good enough to ping most casters and pow 13s are deadly.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Aug 23, 2018 12:52:17 GMT
True, I wanted to make sure that an army that did not have solid armor cracking would lose to this, but I don't think FoS adds to that as heavily as the Avatar. I felt pressured to put in FoS given how good he got under Kreoss with the recent update, but even with all of that awesomeness for 14 points I don't know if I can justify it.
I'll give the Idrians a shot, Sevy0 gives them a nice bump to pow14 if they get the prey on the caster, which seems strong.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 23, 2018 13:10:07 GMT
Idrians are almost mandatory in CM for scenario presence.
FoS is great with Kreoss I would rather drop avatar honestly
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Aug 23, 2018 16:00:56 GMT
Idrians are almost mandatory in CM for scenario presence. FoS is great with Kreoss I would rather drop avatar honestly I get that a lot, but with the mass loss of purification and Kreoss' inability to power a large number of warjacks and defenders ward I think he really shines. He also brings magic weapons to the table, which is missing in protectorate Jack spam. Eye of Menoth has lots of workarounds, but it guards guns and lets me position Kreoss aggressively (I advance very aggressively early so that I can feat/purify before moving). Lastly, I have noticed that a significant number of factions do not crutch on blessed often to break armor (the elephant in the room being Cryx). Spell Warded/DW Avatar is a problem, especially with enliven. I also play better with a valuable power piece, so there might be something personal here. |
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 23, 2018 16:49:13 GMT
If it works for you than go for it  I do think FoS is just amazing as a beater heavy though. |
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 23, 2018 18:43:50 GMT
I think you will find yourself losing on scenario a lot with this army, unfortunately. I've been trying to play with a shooty PoM army for most of mk3 and it was doing great...until SR2017 dropped and scenarios became extremely live. Then it underwent a lot of changes, mostly removing jacks and adding units/solos/contesting pieces.
Without those elements in abundance you will face an uphill struggle. With no theme bonus/Anastasia to help you win the starting roll-off you will go second more often than not. Then you will have turns when your few expensive pieces are forced to run and do nothing just to prolong the agony and contest for one more turn, their powerful shooting doing nothing. Even if you win the starting roll you may be easily forced to do that in many scenarios. I lost a few games like that, devastating some enemy models with excellent shooting only to realise that it didn't matter at all as doing that meant giving up scenario.
Creator's Might is a trap IMO, unfortunately, especially if you don't use the Merc solo/unit option.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Aug 23, 2018 21:46:29 GMT
You might be right, but I would rather try and find solutions instead of writing it off for dead (until I potentially arrive at the same conclusion).
I think the key aspect that the community has written off is the Avatar, who is fantastic in Scenario with DW. The repo solos provide a nice set of tools to contest will still providing their function. Sevy0 also improves the Jack gun line more then he improves the EI weapon master spam list imho.
I do think the Idrians will potentially improve the list, they solve problems.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Aug 23, 2018 22:14:08 GMT
Yeah, I personally disagree that Creator's is a "trap" in scenario play. For example, I've been able to successfully play a Tristan2 melee-jack list in CM throughout the entirety of Mk3, and it remains one of my staple lists.
You can control/contest flags near your side with the Wracks (if going second, they can be 16" from table edge, potentially close enough), and repositioning Mechaniks/Vassels can grab flags. So flags are actually fantastic to see. It's the zones that are a problem, as generally you'll only be able to contest until late game. Typical game for me sees me dropping 0-1 or 0-2 in scenario points before I'm able to stabilize and eventually grind out a win.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Aug 24, 2018 3:06:12 GMT
I've been running a Creators Might Kreoss 1 list. This was before Sev 0 though
I do find Rhoven and company invaluable. Menoth's sight can be a key ability, especially against cloud walls and Stealth in addition to giving you two shields guards, as well as a unit for scenario purposes
I also find the Book a must have. If nothing else, you can use it as a solo to score a flag or zone forcing your opponent to have to spend 5 attacks trying to kill it.
I also found the Avatar was very useful
Some of this may change, especially with the new Fire of Salvation and Exemplar Warder
You could drop Rhoven and company for a Warder, but at 9 points, two 8 wound shield guards and a utility solo are kind of a nice deal for 1 point cheaper than 2 Warders. Of course you can take them as free solos though, but then you lose your answer to Stealth,Clouds unless you bring the Revelator instead of the Judicator
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 24, 2018 8:48:02 GMT
You might be right, but I would rather try and find solutions instead of writing it off for dead (until I potentially arrive at the same conclusion). Oh, by all means try it out and see how it works for you! I'm just sharing my own experience, because I started with a very similar list just before SR2017 dropped - Sevvy1 Creator's Might with double Reckoners, Tristan's Redeemer, Avatar, Battle Engine (and a Revelator version too). It worked great, Avatar with DW was a nice scenario piece, shooting was devastating...for 2 months until the final version of SR2017 arrived.
Since then the list just had to evolve. I didn't want to lose the "devastating shooting" aspect, because I enjoyed it and opponents were quite often surprised by it, but it desperately needed more scoring elements and fast+expendable contesting elements. Sending a 20pts jack running just to contest a zone for a turn and postpone the inevitable wasn't optimal. And there are things in the game which one-round a DW'ed Avatar just fine.
Since then the list lost some of the heavier elements, gained two solid units and a few fighty, durable solos while retaining it's "devastating shooting" core of double Reckoner+double Redeemer. It plays on scenario very well now and still can take down heavies/battle engines/threaten assassination from huge distances
It evolved from
(Severius 1) Grand Scrutator Severius [+28]
- Blessing of Vengeance [13]
- Reckoner [16]
- Reckoner [16]
Avatar of Menoth [20]
Vessel of Judgment [18]
Initiate Tristan Durant [0(4)]
- Redeemer [11]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Wrack [1]
Choir of Menoth (max) [6]
into
(Severius 1) Grand Scrutator Severius [+28]
- Reckoner [16]
- Reckoner [16]
- Redeemer [11]
- Redeemer [11]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Exemplar Errants [16]
Exemplar Vengers [20]
Exemplar Errant Seneschal [4]
Knight Exemplar Seneschal [0(5)]
Elias Gade [0(5)]
Anastasia diBray [3]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Wrack [1]
which is still a pre CiD version and went 3:1 in the last month's Polish Championship, losing only barely due to me not knowing the opposing army well enough (it was paired with fast and aggressive Harby in Guardians). With CiD changes and a few tweaks it's going to be even more efficient.
In my opinion in CM you really need to use those merc options for scoring/contesting elements. The obvious option for good scenario play is Idrians+Anastasia but I'm sure there are other ones.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Aug 24, 2018 14:54:02 GMT
Steelhead Halbs with an Attendant Priest work pretty ok as a fast meat shield, especially if Defender's Ward or Arcane Ward are available. Straight points swap from Fire, too.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 24, 2018 15:59:46 GMT
Cm usually has 2 units, the choir, they score and contest just like any other unit. They even get repo to help with that.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Aug 24, 2018 16:59:46 GMT
I think I would rather have the Idrians with Kreoss, and in general I dislike playing with a meat shield (though that is personal preference).
I think go to ground is value here too, since Kreoss has one turn that is virtually guaranteed to be devastating and you can ensure most of the idrians make it to that.
I like Sevy in CM, but I feel like Sevy0 is too valuable to give up.
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