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Post by Azuresun on Aug 21, 2018 21:59:26 GMT
The problem with Black Industries is not so much the strength of the list (though Gaspy3 getting turn 1 is in fact highly oppressive). It is that it is a list that asks a very strong and different question than Cryx usually asks, which can be paired with traditional Cryx lists. With a few exceptions for certain factions, it creates a nasty list chicken dynamic when playing into Cryx. Very similar in a lot of ways to Dark Host/Ghost Fleet, honestly. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the intention of CID and themes is to expand the range of playable models and strategies in a faction, at some point PP is going to need to recognize that those lists cannot be allowed to pose as hard of a question as they could when the competitive meta for a given faction was narrower. The way the competitive warmachine/hordes environment has grown up is predicated on the assumption that you could tech for a given faction within a single list (and the exceptions to that have been... problematic, historically). If that's no longer intended to be the case, the necessity of teching, even for the best lists in the meta, needs to decrease. Strongly agreed. I think the increasing diversity of strong lists is a good thing in itself BUT it's exposing a problem that's been present for some time--way, waaaaay too much of the game is decided in list selection and there are just too many counter-or-lose things out there to be able to prepare for them all. One thing I find very telling is that if you look at most "How do I deal with...." threads on the boards, the answers will usually be on the theme of "play a list with this in it, then you might stand a chance". Not "Use the list you already have in a different way." The other problem is something else that goes back to Mk2 and probably earlier--miserable "you don't get to play the game" lists that can ignore what the opponent is doing are not just good, they're consistently the best way to play.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 21, 2018 22:50:54 GMT
I think t is the whole Gaspy package....and something of the same reason that Loud Chris did so well with Karchev Maurader spam. 1) Because of Carapace you can, with near impunity, run right up the gut. There are a FEW things you don't want to see (things that can slam you around coming immediately to mind) but generally ARM 21 is getting you home free. 2) Because of Mobility you set the line WAY up. This is really important because.... 3) SR 2018 penalizes the most obvious "counter": Layering your army so that you absorb the blow and then come back and counter. But because the lines are so far on your side of the table, it will be turn 4 or 5 by the time you clear and then get back to contest. Gaspy has won by then. 4) Unyielding add to 3. ARM 19 is still fairly tissue like but it still takes TIME to chew through the boxes....something you don't have because he is scoring and you are not. <Sidebar. This is why the streamed final at L&L was so instructive. Grymkin did well with the layer strategy. He had some very specific models (Swarms) to deny the slayers a good trample and then the fury mechanic and Manifest destiny to make the counter so devastating. He also had a Swarm to go do contesting duty - so that the S&M and Cage Ragers could chew through the boxes in an efficient fashion. Few factions, especially Warmachine, have the kind of output you can get when you run 4 Grymkin heavies fully hot under Manifest. Add in the arcana that were in hand and it was one of the few difficult matchups for Gaspy) 5) Focus 7+. Gaspy has effectively more than 7 focus to spend. Vorciferon can get out Calamity (or hex blast). He has to be a bit forward but with 9 slayers you have other things to worry about that Vorc. so he is probably around for a while - if he is NOT being used to score a flag. Meanwhile Gaspy has focus to allocate - and likely much more on the turn after you try to counter as he gets on the soul train. Here is a good thought exercise. If it is solely the cheapness and the carapace why not Hark and MAD DOG spam in some sort of very odd winterguard theme? He could bring MORE madogs at Cost 8. He can get them up to 21. He can advance move them up 4 inches. Then he casts mobility and feats. The Maddogs would RUN 14 inches with fleet (they get to run for free) and be 18 inches off the line (same as Gaspy2). They are at ARM 21. And heck, they can blow up ;-) But that would be a HORRIFICALLY bad (though hysterical list). No. What probably is required is some tweeking in a number of places. Bring the Slayers up to 11. Look at the theme benefits and either pull back the +2 advantage or rework caparce (what about Giving out concealment - allowing those slayers to be at DEF 15?). And probably swapping Escort for Mobility so that the run isn't that oppressive on turn 1 that the engagement line isn't so far onto your opponents side. I think those changes STILL make for a strong jack build for Gaspy - just one that isn't so oppressive and allows more factions/lists to play the game (and requires Gaspy to be "smart" in respect to position and target priority rather than just running like a madman straight down the line in 16 inches. He only gets them up to 21 on a single turn, and that matters. If it was the gaspy package thats breaking it, you'd at SOME point have seen 10+ slayers in other themes. The carapace gives them game into Cygnar high-ish pow gunline lists. Despite the fact that Infernal Machines had hyper aggressive to further speed them into melee you didn't see this style of list clocking wins with any level of popularity, and you don't see slayer spam gaspy in it now. Thats because carapace kills the primary weakness of the slayer, which was getting an arm blown off on its way in. BI removes ALL the weaknesses of cryx heavies in a way that no other jack theme does. I honestly think that changing carapace to something else is all thats needed to see that list mitigated. Maybe. It favors though really only one counter - shooting. It still would be oppresive into say a LOT of Khador (other than Rockets and some AC builds) if they don't bring shooting. Ditto a lot of Trolls. Ditto a bunch of menoth. I agree that Carpace is (too) strong - just that I want to be sure that the nerf works for many, not just for high powered gun lines.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 21, 2018 22:55:57 GMT
It doesn't even necessarily take a HIGH powered gunline. The minute you have pow 10-12 shooting with CRA, units can start blowing off arms and any jack/artillery shots will begin attrition. I feel cautious about nerfing good jack casters when the indication is that its a theme that took them too far rather than their kit.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 21, 2018 22:56:56 GMT
The problem with Black Industries is not so much the strength of the list (though Gaspy3 getting turn 1 is in fact highly oppressive). It is that it is a list that asks a very strong and different question than Cryx usually asks, which can be paired with traditional Cryx lists. With a few exceptions for certain factions, it creates a nasty list chicken dynamic when playing into Cryx. Very similar in a lot of ways to Dark Host/Ghost Fleet, honestly. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the intention of CID and themes is to expand the range of playable models and strategies in a faction, at some point PP is going to need to recognize that those lists cannot be allowed to pose as hard of a question as they could when the competitive meta for a given faction was narrower. The way the competitive warmachine/hordes environment has grown up is predicated on the assumption that you could tech for a given faction within a single list (and the exceptions to that have been... problematic, historically). If that's no longer intended to be the case, the necessity of teching, even for the best lists in the meta, needs to decrease. Strongly agreed. I think the increasing diversity of strong lists is a good thing in itself BUT it's exposing a problem that's been present for some time--way, waaaaay too much of the game is decided in list selection and there are just too many counter-or-lose things out there to be able to prepare for them all. One thing I find very telling is that if you look at most "How do I deal with...." threads on the boards, the answers will usually be on the theme of "play a list with this in it, then you might stand a chance". Not "Use the list you already have in a different way." The other problem is something else that goes back to Mk2 and probably earlier--miserable "you don't get to play the game" lists that can ignore what the opponent is doing are not just good, they're consistently the best way to play.+1 +1. I tend to think a lot of this remains some game design (well really steamroller) choices made early on which advantaged control/board space as a key winning condition. It is just really really hard to balance around that. I wonder what WM/H would look like if they radically mixed up scenario win conditions - up to and including some randomness at list drop such as that each player would randomly have a scenario element they COULD NOT score...and perhaps including no scoring by casters. - which would, I think force a lot more creative and balance lists. If you had, for example, a 1 in 3 chance of not being able to score flags in Spread the net suddenly you can't really contemplate just sitting back and shooting/controlling for ways or running your slayers madly forward without balance if randomly you can't score rectangles. I know people hate randomness....but planning for those contigencies I think right off the bat would hurt spam lists.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 21, 2018 23:02:32 GMT
It doesn't even necessarily take a HIGH powered gunline. The minute you have pow 10-12 shooting with CRA, units can start blowing off arms and any jack/artillery shots will begin attrition. I feel cautious about nerfing good jack casters when the indication is that its a theme that took them too far rather than their kit. Not sure escort vs. Mobility is a HUGE nerf for a jack caster with Gaspy's feat but I am not going to die on the hill over that one. We are in agreement that carapace needs addressing - it is too bad there isn't something "in between" in the rule set (+2 armor or even 3)
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Post by borderprince on Aug 22, 2018 6:16:18 GMT
Why is no one talking about the fact there's a 300% increase in crucible guard Technically not a 300% increase as there were 0 CG lists in previous years.*
*I have too many teachers (including math teachers) in the family.
I think part of it might be time to plan and develop lists - this might be more (or less?) significant in a team context. Minions had a great CiD a while ago, but there's been time to work through the options and tweak lists (and get the minis). Same with Grymkin. The Khador CiD isn't so recent and some of the models only dropped fairly recently - the Khador forum is still discussing the consequences and builds with various casters.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 22, 2018 6:29:48 GMT
The problem with Black Industries is not so much the strength of the list (though Gaspy3 getting turn 1 is in fact highly oppressive). It is that it is a list that asks a very strong and different question than Cryx usually asks, which can be paired with traditional Cryx lists. With a few exceptions for certain factions, it creates a nasty list chicken dynamic when playing into Cryx. Very similar in a lot of ways to Dark Host/Ghost Fleet, honestly. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the intention of CID and themes is to expand the range of playable models and strategies in a faction, at some point PP is going to need to recognize that those lists cannot be allowed to pose as hard of a question as they could when the competitive meta for a given faction was narrower. The way the competitive warmachine/hordes environment has grown up is predicated on the assumption that you could tech for a given faction within a single list (and the exceptions to that have been... problematic, historically). If that's no longer intended to be the case, the necessity of teching, even for the best lists in the meta, needs to decrease. I'm not so sure that Dark Host/Ghost Fleet is the same kind of list chicken, unless you mean the double Wraith Engine version. Both themes have similar weaknesses in that they are extremely vulnerable to RFP. Trolls being so popular and them having access to one of the best RFP themes has shifted the meta somewhat to be very hostile to recursion type lists. I agree that some list pairings will have difficulties dealing with it, but the nature of the game has always been that a list's natural predators keep it somewhat in check so it doesn't overrun the meta as a whole rather than every pairing being able to deal with absolutely everything. I agree on the list chicken thing, and in particular that BI gives something wildly different from other Cryx lists so makes it hard to plan for. On a side note, I'm quite sure that that is why BI is so popular, in that it poses different questions, which makes it harder to answer than a typical list, and that Gaspy 3 is simply the (perceived) best and most popular caster for it. I've had the impression that MK3 as a whole is more list chicken-ish as a whole though. This is the result of having access to a huge range of models in every faction and the lines between faction roles and identities fading. Themes (and community preferences) also make lists more skewy. I'm quite sure this is intentional though as PP wants themes to be more like mini-factions and have distinct niches within a faction as it continues to add tools to each line-up. I'm not going to discuss whether or not Gaspy 3 or Slayers or BI need a nerf right now as it will be the usual one that goes in circles. If PP deems it necessary, I hope they go with something that is appropriate while still keeping all the parts involved viable in other lists. sand20go you might want to re-read Spell Slave, because Vociferon can definitely not cast Calamity as it's an upkeep spell. The only things he can cast are Hex Blast (which does basically nothing if it doesn't hit) and Hellfire. Sometimes those spells are useful, but he's mostly a soul collector and flag capper.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 22, 2018 7:27:07 GMT
The problem with Black Industries is not so much the strength of the list (though Gaspy3 getting turn 1 is in fact highly oppressive). It is that it is a list that asks a very strong and different question than Cryx usually asks, which can be paired with traditional Cryx lists. With a few exceptions for certain factions, it creates a nasty list chicken dynamic when playing into Cryx. Very similar in a lot of ways to Dark Host/Ghost Fleet, honestly. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If the intention of CID and themes is to expand the range of playable models and strategies in a faction, at some point PP is going to need to recognize that those lists cannot be allowed to pose as hard of a question as they could when the competitive meta for a given faction was narrower. The way the competitive warmachine/hordes environment has grown up is predicated on the assumption that you could tech for a given faction within a single list (and the exceptions to that have been... problematic, historically). If that's no longer intended to be the case, the necessity of teching, even for the best lists in the meta, needs to decrease. I'm not so sure that Dark Host/Ghost Fleet is the same kind of list chicken, unless you mean the double Wraith Engine version. Both themes have similar weaknesses in that they are extremely vulnerable to RFP. Trolls being so popular and them having access to one of the best RFP themes has shifted the meta somewhat to be very hostile to recursion type lists. I agree that some list pairings will have difficulties dealing with it, but the nature of the game has always been that a list's natural predators keep it somewhat in check so it doesn't overrun the meta as a whole rather than every pairing being able to deal with absolutely everything. I agree on the list chicken thing, and in particular that BI gives something wildly different from other Cryx lists so makes it hard to plan for. On a side note, I'm quite sure that that is why BI is so popular, in that it poses different questions, which makes it harder to answer than a typical list, and that Gaspy 3 is simply the (perceived) best and most popular caster for it. I've had the impression that MK3 as a whole is more list chicken-ish as a whole though. This is the result of having access to a huge range of models in every faction and the lines between faction roles and identities fading. Themes (and community preferences) also make lists more skewy. I'm quite sure this is intentional though as PP wants themes to be more like mini-factions and have distinct niches within a faction as it continues to add tools to each line-up. I'm not going to discuss whether or not Gaspy 3 or Slayers or BI need a nerf right now as it will be the usual one that goes in circles. If PP deems it necessary, I hope they go with something that is appropriate while still keeping all the parts involved viable in other lists. sand20go you might want to re-read Spell Slave, because Vociferon can definitely not cast Calamity as it's an upkeep spell. The only things he can cast are Hex Blast (which does basically nothing if it doesn't hit) and Hellfire. Sometimes those spells are useful, but he's mostly a soul collector and flag capper. Dark Host cares very, very little for RFP. The Skarre1 build in particular, obviously, but generally speaking? RFP is not even on the radar when looking at answers to DH. For the Skarre1 build in particular, it's disregard for math + the general rules of the game is so great (Defense? Dark Guidance. Focus limitations? Ritual Sacrifice scrap thralls. Armor? Blessed Stalkers with a +7 damage swing, or P+S 22 Wraith Engines. Control Area limitations? Long leash.) means that the best counter to it is to never let the list touch anything, and hope you can avoid losing on scenario while you slowly pick it apart (difficult, if the Cryx player goes first). Regardless, the DH/GF pairing I was referring to was the one that achieved, what, a 70+% winrate at last year's WTC? That pairing (Denny1 GF + Coven DH) created a massive list chicken, because the counters to Denny1 Fleet were limited and typically shooting reliant, while Coven Host completely shuts down shooting reliant lists, particularly if the opponent is dumping points into expensive ranged RFP options. As to themes as mini-factions...As long as you can take two lists from any two themes in your faction in a pairing, they are not mini-factions, and cannot be treated as such. I get what PP is going for here, and I even applaud it, but...FFS, they need to stop putting out lists that demand hard counters and gear checks to be played into properly, if that's end goal.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 22, 2018 7:41:49 GMT
Dark Host cares very, very little for RFP. The Skarre1 build in particular, obviously, but generally speaking? RFP is not even on the radar when looking at answers to DH. Regardless, the DH/GF pairing I was referring to was the one that achieved, what, a 70+% winrate at last year's WTC? That pairing (Denny1 GF + Coven DH) created a massive list chicken, because the counters to Denny1 Fleet were limited and typically shooting reliant, while Coven Host completely shuts down shooting reliant lists, particularly if the opponent is dumping points into expensive ranged RFP options. As to themes as mini-factions...As long as you can take two lists from any two themes in your faction in a pairing, they are not mini-factions, and cannot be treated as such. I get what PP is going for here, and I even applaud it, but...FFS, they need to stop putting out lists that demand hard counters and gear checks to be played into properly, if that's end goal. You're right about the Skarre1 build, as I mentioned. You're also partly right about the RFP, as I did not express my complete thought. RFP, especially blanket, is partly relevant against Dark Host as it will usually play 1 or 2 Bane Warrior Officers. Not getting back 2D3+2 Bane Warriors is significant. On top of that, large parts of the list, again Warriors, rely on Tough as a primary way of not dying, especially in melee. The blanket RFP themes also ignore Tough, at least the most popular ones, Band of Heroes and Masters of War. These themes are a hard counter into both DH and GF (and both should be able to take out a Wraith Engine, especially Trolls) and taking this particular pairing is asking to be hard countered. Note that my comment indeed doesn't apply to last year as that was before the themepocalypse and before Trollbloods became basically a hard counter to a lot of Cryx. So if that was your original point, then you are definitely right. About themes, again, I think this is their intention, whether or not it is a good idea, I couldn't say, but currently I'm kind of enjoying the puzzle of making sure my both lists overlap just enough to not have too much list chicken while still offering different questions/answers. It is really showing though that this year's pairing process is less "you take this and that faction and you take those other ones" and more "well, how do we deal with this particular pairing that's built to ask these questions?"
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 22, 2018 8:48:52 GMT
I'm not so sure that Dark Host/Ghost Fleet is the same kind of list chicken, unless you mean the double Wraith Engine version. Both themes have similar weaknesses in that they are extremely vulnerable to RFP. Trolls being so popular and them having access to one of the best RFP themes has shifted the meta somewhat to be very hostile to recursion type lists. I agree that some list pairings will have difficulties dealing with it, but the nature of the game has always been that a list's natural predators keep it somewhat in check so it doesn't overrun the meta as a whole rather than every pairing being able to deal with absolutely everything.
But frankly, while it might work on the macro level, that's a really bad way to handle the issue in terms of actual games."Bring this list, and you'll get a high proporton of roflstomps in your favour. The balancing factor is that you risk dropping it into this list which will roflstomp you."
It's still a coin-flip that pushes the focus onto list building and away from actual skill at using the list.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 22, 2018 12:47:25 GMT
PP's balancing ability is laughable at this point. They blew up mk3 release, nerfed Cryx and cheap jack spam into the ground only 2 years later for Cryx and cheap jack spam to dominate again, except this time everyone can feel bad about it because it all got through CID (which was supposed to prevent it).
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 22, 2018 12:56:46 GMT
PP's balancing ability is laughable at this point. They blew up mk3 release, nerfed Cryx and cheap jack spam into the ground only 2 years later for Cryx and cheap jack spam to dominate again, except this time everyone can feel bad about it because it all got through CID (which was supposed to prevent it). You've recognized the cycle too huh?
Should we just accept that the game is going to be a roller coaster and just enjoy the highs when we get them?
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Post by jisidro on Aug 22, 2018 13:02:47 GMT
PP's balancing ability is laughable at this point. They blew up mk3 release, nerfed Cryx and cheap jack spam into the ground only 2 years later for Cryx and cheap jack spam to dominate again, except this time everyone can feel bad about it because it all got through CID (which was supposed to prevent it). Black industries didn't go through CID, right? Slayer did but by himself he isn't appealing... His good points fall over to the lack of protection cryx likes to play with. I noticed that the community seems a lot more confortable with Cryx dominating than other factions. Do you guys agree?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 22, 2018 14:09:47 GMT
Dark Host cares very, very little for RFP. The Skarre1 build in particular, obviously, but generally speaking? RFP is not even on the radar when looking at answers to DH. Regardless, the DH/GF pairing I was referring to was the one that achieved, what, a 70+% winrate at last year's WTC? That pairing (Denny1 GF + Coven DH) created a massive list chicken, because the counters to Denny1 Fleet were limited and typically shooting reliant, while Coven Host completely shuts down shooting reliant lists, particularly if the opponent is dumping points into expensive ranged RFP options. As to themes as mini-factions...As long as you can take two lists from any two themes in your faction in a pairing, they are not mini-factions, and cannot be treated as such. I get what PP is going for here, and I even applaud it, but...FFS, they need to stop putting out lists that demand hard counters and gear checks to be played into properly, if that's end goal. You're right about the Skarre1 build, as I mentioned. You're also partly right about the RFP, as I did not express my complete thought. RFP, especially blanket, is partly relevant against Dark Host as it will usually play 1 or 2 Bane Warrior Officers. Not getting back 2D3+2 Bane Warriors is significant. On top of that, large parts of the list, again Warriors, rely on Tough as a primary way of not dying, especially in melee. The blanket RFP themes also ignore Tough, at least the most popular ones, Band of Heroes and Masters of War. These themes are a hard counter into both DH and GF (and both should be able to take out a Wraith Engine, especially Trolls) and taking this particular pairing is asking to be hard countered. Note that my comment indeed doesn't apply to last year as that was before the themepocalypse and before Trollbloods became basically a hard counter to a lot of Cryx. So if that was your original point, then you are definitely right. About themes, again, I think this is their intention, whether or not it is a good idea, I couldn't say, but currently I'm kind of enjoying the puzzle of making sure my both lists overlap just enough to not have too much list chicken while still offering different questions/answers. It is really showing though that this year's pairing process is less "you take this and that faction and you take those other ones" and more "well, how do we deal with this particular pairing that's built to ask these questions?" But...Dark Host isn't just Bane Warriors? And realistically, warriors make up a fairly small proportion of the units taken in Dark Host lists, and tend to be used as dark shroud bots and secondline hitters? And even if Bane Warriors are being run, those themes (which, I'll note, are 3 themes, and not repesentative of all the RFP in the game) only end up denying a portion of the Banes' kit? It's far from a hard counter (though some lists in those themes can be hard counters to non-Skarre1 DarkHost list - Makeda with 40+ Swordsmen comes to mind). Anyways, I'm certain that you, as a Cryx player, are enjoying Mk3...I'm sure I would as well if I had as many competitively viable (and even potentially oppressive, in some cases) options.
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Post by benjamini on Aug 22, 2018 14:16:33 GMT
PP's balancing ability is laughable at this point. They blew up mk3 release, nerfed Cryx and cheap jack spam into the ground only 2 years later for Cryx and cheap jack spam to dominate again, except this time everyone can feel bad about it because it all got through CID (which was supposed to prevent it). Black industries didn't go through CID, right? Slayer did but by himself he isn't appealing... His good points fall over to the lack of protection cryx likes to play with. I noticed that the community seems a lot more confortable with Cryx dominating than other factions. Do you guys agree? I wouldn't say we're comfortable with it so much as resigned to it, barring a few months at the start of MK III, Cryx has been above the curve for almost the entire time I've been playing the game. It hasn't always been severely so, but it's been a thing.
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