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Post by The Snark Knight on Aug 21, 2018 15:26:18 GMT
If I know Privateer Press, their approach will probably be something along the lines of nerf Asphyxious, nerf Slayer, nerf Black Industries, keep on nerfing.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 21, 2018 15:27:17 GMT
If I know Privateer Press, their approach will probably be something along the lines of nerf Asphyxious, nerf Slayer, nerf Black Industries, keep on nerfing. That would be a shame, as skarre1 wraith engines is far more oppressive.
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Post by Rork on Aug 21, 2018 15:33:40 GMT
If I know Privateer Press, their approach will probably be something along the lines of nerf Asphyxious, nerf Slayer, nerf Black Industries, keep on nerfing. Well, you don't get balance by wishing things away. Neither do you achieve balance by shifting 90% of the field up to match the top 10%. At least Cryx and Cygnar players (Dem nerfs) get to be bestest buddies again when the hammer falls on Black Industries...
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Aug 21, 2018 17:02:55 GMT
If anything Slayers should be cheaper Please, no one else respond to this. Please. Calm down hotshot. The jack seems pretty mediocre with ARM 17.
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Post by gargs454 on Aug 21, 2018 17:05:07 GMT
Was nice to see a decent spread of factions after Cryx at least. As a Protectorate player it was a bit sad to see only one Guardians list, though not too surprising. A shame because I think there are some really decent models in that theme, but the theme itself still just can't compete. I was a bit surprised to see so many Judy's but no Revelator, but I don't own either, so not sure how surprising that is.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Aug 21, 2018 17:21:10 GMT
Someone’s running Denny3! I haven’t found the actual list yet, but I think that’s pretty cool!
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Post by darkshroud on Aug 21, 2018 18:53:17 GMT
Please, no one else respond to this. Please. Calm down hotshot. The jack seems pretty mediocre with ARM 17. so what, like a 8 pt heavy? thats def 13, speed 6, has debuffs available to it. yea, im sure thats fine. but i guess thats coming from someone who clearly never put the jack on the table.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 21, 2018 19:07:19 GMT
Arguably the problem with Slayers isn't Slayers themselves, if they didn't have access to massive free defensive buffs from Field Marshals and Theme benefits you'd probably see a heck of a lot less of them. I'm not sure increasing the cost of the jack is going to solve as many problems as we hope it will, it'd be something though 8 slayers would be a bunch easier to deal with than 9 slayers! Its absolutely the carapace coupled with the cheapness of slayers Slayers are one of the jacks that you can reasonably expect to put damage on with unit based small arms fire and other high pow shooting. Carapace kills that weakness, and it doesn't matter as much that they're wet tissue paper in melee when they outthreat you and 9/10 make it to melee.
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Post by benjamini on Aug 21, 2018 19:22:41 GMT
Arguably the problem with Slayers isn't Slayers themselves, if they didn't have access to massive free defensive buffs from Field Marshals and Theme benefits you'd probably see a heck of a lot less of them. I'm not sure increasing the cost of the jack is going to solve as many problems as we hope it will, it'd be something though 8 slayers would be a bunch easier to deal with than 9 slayers! Its absolutely the carapace coupled with the cheapness of slayers Slayers are one of the jacks that you can reasonably expect to put damage on with unit based small arms fire and other high pow shooting. Carapace kills that weakness, and it doesn't matter as much that they're wet tissue paper in melee when they outthreat you and 9/10 make it to melee. Agreed, I have no idea why Carapace was considered to be a reasonable theme benefit.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 21, 2018 19:32:43 GMT
Calm down hotshot. The jack seems pretty mediocre with ARM 17. so what, like a 8 pt heavy? thats def 13, speed 6, has debuffs available to it. yea, im sure thats fine. but i guess thats coming from someone who clearly never put the jack on the table. They are trolling, just ignore them
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Post by The Snark Knight on Aug 21, 2018 19:41:18 GMT
If I know Privateer Press, their approach will probably be something along the lines of nerf Asphyxious, nerf Slayer, nerf Black Industries, keep on nerfing. Well, you don't get balance by wishing things away. Neither do you achieve balance by shifting 90% of the field up to match the top 10%. At least Cryx and Cygnar players (Dem nerfs) get to be bestest buddies again when the hammer falls on Black Industries... Agreed, but nerfing all three Karchev style is probably overkill. It's also probably what they'll do.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 21, 2018 19:53:59 GMT
Arguably the problem with Slayers isn't Slayers themselves, if they didn't have access to massive free defensive buffs from Field Marshals and Theme benefits you'd probably see a heck of a lot less of them. I'm not sure increasing the cost of the jack is going to solve as many problems as we hope it will, it'd be something though 8 slayers would be a bunch easier to deal with than 9 slayers! Its absolutely the carapace coupled with the cheapness of slayers Slayers are one of the jacks that you can reasonably expect to put damage on with unit based small arms fire and other high pow shooting. Carapace kills that weakness, and it doesn't matter as much that they're wet tissue paper in melee when they outthreat you and 9/10 make it to melee. I think t is the whole Gaspy package....and something of the same reason that Loud Chris did so well with Karchev Maurader spam. 1) Because of Carapace you can, with near impunity, run right up the gut. There are a FEW things you don't want to see (things that can slam you around coming immediately to mind) but generally ARM 21 is getting you home free. 2) Because of Mobility you set the line WAY up. This is really important because.... 3) SR 2018 penalizes the most obvious "counter": Layering your army so that you absorb the blow and then come back and counter. But because the lines are so far on your side of the table, it will be turn 4 or 5 by the time you clear and then get back to contest. Gaspy has won by then. 4) Unyielding add to 3. ARM 19 is still fairly tissue like but it still takes TIME to chew through the boxes....something you don't have because he is scoring and you are not. <Sidebar. This is why the streamed final at L&L was so instructive. Grymkin did well with the layer strategy. He had some very specific models (Swarms) to deny the slayers a good trample and then the fury mechanic and Manifest destiny to make the counter so devastating. He also had a Swarm to go do contesting duty - so that the S&M and Cage Ragers could chew through the boxes in an efficient fashion. Few factions, especially Warmachine, have the kind of output you can get when you run 4 Grymkin heavies fully hot under Manifest. Add in the arcana that were in hand and it was one of the few difficult matchups for Gaspy) 5) Focus 7+. Gaspy has effectively more than 7 focus to spend. Vorciferon can get out Calamity (or hex blast). He has to be a bit forward but with 9 slayers you have other things to worry about that Vorc. so he is probably around for a while - if he is NOT being used to score a flag. Meanwhile Gaspy has focus to allocate - and likely much more on the turn after you try to counter as he gets on the soul train. Here is a good thought exercise. If it is solely the cheapness and the carapace why not Hark and MAD DOG spam in some sort of very odd winterguard theme? He could bring MORE madogs at Cost 8. He can get them up to 21. He can advance move them up 4 inches. Then he casts mobility and feats. The Maddogs would RUN 14 inches with fleet (they get to run for free) and be 18 inches off the line (same as Gaspy2). They are at ARM 21. And heck, they can blow up ;-) But that would be a HORRIFICALLY bad (though hysterical list). No. What probably is required is some tweeking in a number of places. Bring the Slayers up to 11. Look at the theme benefits and either pull back the +2 advantage or rework caparce (what about Giving out concealment - allowing those slayers to be at DEF 15?). And probably swapping Escort for Mobility so that the run isn't that oppressive on turn 1 that the engagement line isn't so far onto your opponents side. I think those changes STILL make for a strong jack build for Gaspy - just one that isn't so oppressive and allows more factions/lists to play the game (and requires Gaspy to be "smart" in respect to position and target priority rather than just running like a madman straight down the line in 16 inches.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Aug 21, 2018 19:58:21 GMT
so what, like a 8 pt heavy? I'm thinking 9 points could be the sweet spot, given BI and Gaspy3 are nerfed.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Aug 21, 2018 20:09:11 GMT
Why is no one talking about the fact there's a 300% increase in crucible guard
but seriously. Khador and ret both dropped 50%. Conversely, Trollbloods, minions, grymkin all saw huge leaps in turnout over a hundred percent each. I am amazed at the drop in khador considering the cid and model boosts they've had. Cygnar saw a drop as well, which I think is more easily explained - they've seen an overall power level reduction, and now whenever there's discussion on them it's basically all about haley3... thrilling. From the outside looking in, I personally feel they have so much in the tank in casters that remain underused. Just my opinion.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 21, 2018 20:11:46 GMT
Its absolutely the carapace coupled with the cheapness of slayers Slayers are one of the jacks that you can reasonably expect to put damage on with unit based small arms fire and other high pow shooting. Carapace kills that weakness, and it doesn't matter as much that they're wet tissue paper in melee when they outthreat you and 9/10 make it to melee. I think t is the whole Gaspy package....and something of the same reason that Loud Chris did so well with Karchev Maurader spam. 1) Because of Carapace you can, with near impunity, run right up the gut. There are a FEW things you don't want to see (things that can slam you around coming immediately to mind) but generally ARM 21 is getting you home free. 2) Because of Mobility you set the line WAY up. This is really important because.... 3) SR 2018 penalizes the most obvious "counter": Layering your army so that you absorb the blow and then come back and counter. But because the lines are so far on your side of the table, it will be turn 4 or 5 by the time you clear and then get back to contest. Gaspy has won by then. 4) Unyielding add to 3. ARM 19 is still fairly tissue like but it still takes TIME to chew through the boxes....something you don't have because he is scoring and you are not. <Sidebar. This is why the streamed final at L&L was so instructive. Grymkin did well with the layer strategy. He had some very specific models (Swarms) to deny the slayers a good trample and then the fury mechanic and Manifest destiny to make the counter so devastating. He also had a Swarm to go do contesting duty - so that the S&M and Cage Ragers could chew through the boxes in an efficient fashion. Few factions, especially Warmachine, have the kind of output you can get when you run 4 Grymkin heavies fully hot under Manifest. Add in the arcana that were in hand and it was one of the few difficult matchups for Gaspy) 5) Focus 7+. Gaspy has effectively more than 7 focus to spend. Vorciferon can get out Calamity (or hex blast). He has to be a bit forward but with 9 slayers you have other things to worry about that Vorc. so he is probably around for a while - if he is NOT being used to score a flag. Meanwhile Gaspy has focus to allocate - and likely much more on the turn after you try to counter as he gets on the soul train. Here is a good thought exercise. If it is solely the cheapness and the carapace why not Hark and MAD DOG spam in some sort of very odd winterguard theme? He could bring MORE madogs at Cost 8. He can get them up to 21. He can advance move them up 4 inches. Then he casts mobility and feats. The Maddogs would RUN 14 inches with fleet (they get to run for free) and be 18 inches off the line (same as Gaspy2). They are at ARM 21. And heck, they can blow up ;-) But that would be a HORRIFICALLY bad (though hysterical list). No. What probably is required is some tweeking in a number of places. Bring the Slayers up to 11. Look at the theme benefits and either pull back the +2 advantage or rework caparce (what about Giving out concealment - allowing those slayers to be at DEF 15?). And probably swapping Escort for Mobility so that the run isn't that oppressive on turn 1 that the engagement line isn't so far onto your opponents side. I think those changes STILL make for a strong jack build for Gaspy - just one that isn't so oppressive and allows more factions/lists to play the game (and requires Gaspy to be "smart" in respect to position and target priority rather than just running like a madman straight down the line in 16 inches. He only gets them up to 21 on a single turn, and that matters. If it was the gaspy package thats breaking it, you'd at SOME point have seen 10+ slayers in other themes. The carapace gives them game into Cygnar high-ish pow gunline lists. Despite the fact that Infernal Machines had hyper aggressive to further speed them into melee you didn't see this style of list clocking wins with any level of popularity, and you don't see slayer spam gaspy in it now. Thats because carapace kills the primary weakness of the slayer, which was getting an arm blown off on its way in. BI removes ALL the weaknesses of cryx heavies in a way that no other jack theme does. I honestly think that changing carapace to something else is all thats needed to see that list mitigated.
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