Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Aug 14, 2018 16:38:34 GMT
So, yeah! ...
What’s our best answer to the 2x Siege Animantarax (“derp turtle”)? Unassisted, they out threaten most of our stuff (SPD 8, RNG 2 melee) with 2x auto-knockdown, POW 11 attacks. It then gets d3+1 shots at P+S 15 into large based models. Different casters can significantly increase that output, so that with a couple of rage tokens they can kill a heavy on its own fairly easily. They are also quite hard to remove when all of the faction bonuses (armor buffs, strength debuffs, etc.) get factored in, especially since they can threat 13” on a charge or trample, then repo 3” back for safety.
I’ve seen them run with lots of screening infantry, and in other cases they’re backed up by a bunch of heavy warbeasts that comes in to kill whatever killed the turtle, so you might need to be able to deal with a variety of double derp turtle flavors.
I’d think that Black Industries with Carapace would be a good place to start. Maybe Gaspy3 with 9 slayers? I’ve had little success myself, so wanted to ask those who might have some table time insight. What are people’s experiences?
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Aug 14, 2018 20:20:11 GMT
Yikes. Yeah, I am glad to not see that at our store. I am interested in this as well, because if a list can handle this, it should be able to handle almost any double huge base list I think.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Aug 14, 2018 22:25:09 GMT
So the only version of Double Turtles I actually have experience with is the Rasheth variant. I have no idea what changes when playing into the Zaadesh2, Hexeris2, Jalaam, or any other double turtle list.
I’ve had very little issues playing into Rasheth turtles with Deneghra2 Black Industries & Asphyxious1 Scourge, although I do wonder how the Supreme Guardian’s Arcane Vortex changes the matchup for Asphyxious1. As it turn out when you can swing Armor hard enough that you can 100% a Turtle from full to dead while it’s in the Agonizer Aura, Krea Aura, & Rasheth’s Feat, Rasheth isn’t happy.
The big thing I find you need into Rasheth Turtles is a way to hit hard every turn. It’s not enough just to have something like Skarre1 Feat. You need to be able to hit hard all the time. You need either hard hitting models like Combo Striking Slayers or Banes, and a way to deliver them like Deneghra2 Feat, or you need a caster that can make anything hit obscenely hard all the time. Asphyxious1 is a great example of this because he can give anything +5 Pow every turn, and since it’s into a huge base, that includes guns since you don’t get a shooting into Melee penalty.
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Post by custardboy on Aug 14, 2018 23:11:50 GMT
The thing with turtles is they will almost always get the alpha, and they will always kill something. It doesn't really matter what you field, they'll kill it. If you don't provide them a decent target, they'll just run around shooting down whatever they want until you do. You have to force them to engage by presenting a good sacrifice for its melee while pushing scenario, then as above you need a list than can punch back hard every turn. That means buffed banes or buffed heavies. Turtles are ludicrously overpowered and in best the case scenario you will have to make an even trade for it. Something like an inflictor, a solo and 1-2 dudes.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 14, 2018 23:31:30 GMT
My only experience playing against double turtles was against the huge based Xerxis, along with Tiberion and a few other heavy beasts and krea. It was a lot of ARM and a lot of boxes! I played this match up several times actually against my Skarre1 Dark Host list with the double Wraith Engines and 4 Stalkers. I never wrote up the reports sorry, but if I remember correctly, game one was my opponent being a little too scared of my threat range of my Stalkers and I actually won on scenario bottom of 2. Game 2, after discussing strategies etc, I encouraged him to be more aggressive, he was and it was a bloody mess, with me losing in the end with a unit of bane warriors left while my opponent had lost most everything else except one turtle and one archidon, there was no way for me to get to his turtle with the banes. Game 3, I was totally owning him, but I didn’t realize that one of his beasts had a pathfinder animus and he moved through a forest and killed Skarre who had no reason to be where she was anyway, a total gotcha moment and a whole lot of BS, because I totally had the game won. The threat range of Stalkers, coupled with ARM debuffs or Str buffs, or both, as well as Wraith Engines should not be underestimated. The stealth of the Stalkers also helps a lot, because if they are close enough to shoot you, they are close enough to be attacked next turn. If the Skorne player has limited effective magic weapons, don’t forget that Wraith Engines can block up where the turtles can end up, even if they can move through them. I was considering if I had to play this or a similar matchup again, I could “turtle up” myself with the Wraith Engines leading the way to protect my second wave from being melee’d to death in order to close the distance.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Aug 15, 2018 1:42:14 GMT
So the only version of Double Turtles I actually have experience with is the Rasheth variant. I have no idea what changes when playing into the Zaadesh2, Hexeris2, Jalaam, or any other double turtle list. Zaadesh2 - One turtle gets Inviolable Resolve for +2 ARM. On feat turn, they both have Defensive Strike with a MAT 8 POW 20 auto-KD. Burning Ash clouds could be a problem for living infantry. Hexeris2 - Banishing Ward goes on one to prevent debuffs. Black Spot is the real threat with them if you brought infantry with poor to average DEF. The turtle charges a heavy (or three), then uses its dual attack to shoot d3+1 shots into the infantry with Black Spot. Each kill is a tail swing on a heavy. If they're really lucky, they can also use the spear attacks on the infantry for another two free tail swings. If all goes perfectly, the turtle can have 10 tail swings in a turn. Again, Cloak of Ash could be a problem for living infantry. Jalaam - With the volume of attacks the turtles can put out, they can trigger Warpath for his entire battlegroup. DEF 10 may not seem like much, but, when you're rolling one less die from his feat, attacks that shouldn't normally miss them will miss them. Other warlocks that potential do stuff for double turtles:Hexeris1 - Parasite lets them really shot heavies off the board. Makeda1 - Quicken makes one SPD 10, Carnage puts them to MAT 8, and the feat gives them Retaliatory Strike. Makeda3 - Hand of Death give one Grevious Wounds (on the gun, too) and Overtake. Mordikaar - Feat makes them both DEF 13 with Poltergeist. Potential for POW 20 Essence Blast sprays. Morghoul2 - Mortality. Can give them Incorporeal if they need to move through obstructions. Xekaar - Mortality. Feat makes them DEF 13 ARM 23 in melee (ARM 25 with Agonizer). Xerxis1 - Defender's Ward one one. Feat gives an extra damage die on melee attacks and +2 ARM. Xerxis2 - Signs & Portents feat turn. Ignite for +2 melee damage. Zaal1 - Between Last Stand and feat, a turtle can close out a game with four tail swings at 4 dice to hit and 4 dice damage. Also Inviolable Resolve for +2 ARM on one of them.
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Post by boxfox on Aug 15, 2018 2:54:53 GMT
Haven't played against one, yet, and I've still got less than 3 months under my belt, but between my Wraith Engine and 6-7 Bane Knights, I almost completely destroyed a Khador Victor colossal during my last match. I'd imagine a turtle with only 3 more DEF and at just over half the HP wouldn't have lasted through the first 4 or 5.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 15, 2018 12:04:11 GMT
The problem is you are really greatly outranged by the turtle, the bane knights will never reach the turtle unless you have some really canny play. I don’t know Skorne so well, so I don’t know how much magic weapon they can hand out, but as I said earlier super Stalkers I believe out threat them and Wraith Engines should be able to get a good approach, even if the turtle is shooting at banes behind the Wraith Engines, eventually it will get caught, then the trick is to make sure you put it in the dirt, because at one box or full it kills the same amount of stuff, unlike a wounded beast/jack. Of course a cool way to try to deal would be zig one way to press the turtles and then zag the other way to kill their stupid warlock.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Aug 15, 2018 14:23:34 GMT
I don’t know Skorne so well, so I don’t know how much magic weapon they can hand out, Extoller Soulward solo has Guidance.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Aug 15, 2018 15:46:19 GMT
So the only version of Double Turtles I actually have experience with is the Rasheth variant. I have no idea what changes when playing into the Zaadesh2, Hexeris2, Jalaam, or any other double turtle list. I’ve had very little issues playing into Rasheth turtles with Deneghra2 Black Industries & Asphyxious1 Scourge, although I do wonder how the Supreme Guardian’s Arcane Vortex changes the matchup for Asphyxious1. As it turn out when you can swing Armor hard enough that you can 100% a Turtle from full to dead while it’s in the Agonizer Aura, Krea Aura, & Rasheth’s Feat, Rasheth isn’t happy. The big thing I find you need into Rasheth Turtles is a way to hit hard every turn. It’s not enough just to have something like Skarre1 Feat. You need to be able to hit hard all the time. You need either hard hitting models like Combo Striking Slayers or Banes, and a way to deliver them like Deneghra2 Feat, or you need a caster that can make anything hit obscenely hard all the time. Asphyxious1 is a great example of this because he can give anything +5 Pow every turn, and since it’s into a huge base, that includes guns since you don’t get a shooting into Melee penalty. Against Rasheth, getting that ARM swing can be hard if has Castigate up. I can see A Black Industries list being able to crack the turtle’s ARM (although our ‘jacks are out-threated by it), but I can’t see a Scourge list, even under Asphyxious1 doing well. Under the Agonizer and Krea and feat, I’d think Satyxis would still struggle.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 16, 2018 6:45:23 GMT
Deller would you mind elaborating on the Deneghra 2 Black Industries matchup? I've played it before (DJ + Nightmare, 2 Seethers on Aiakos) and it really sucks. With Guidance from the Extoller Soulwards, the tortoises don't care about the feat and still easily kill a heavy. Cryx heavies except Deathjack can't really kill a battle engine 1-on-1 and Castigate makes it difficult to apply Curse of Shadows, not to mention you can hardly fuel your jacks if you use it) They also easily outthreat you and a good feat turn with Rasheth can still kill or cripple quite some stuff, even with Carapace. I did admittedly have the extra weakness of Aiakos, because with Guidance he can kill him (not going to risk him rolling a 9), but I don't see the Slayer version doing much better as you lose at least 2-3 before you can do anything. psyllus nice write-up. I luckily don't face them often, but you just scared me even more... Grimolf the POW 11 attacks don't knock down, that's the POW 18 attacks that it can buy and that is boosted on the charge. The POW 11's don't really do much except unjam itself.
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Post by boxfox on Aug 16, 2018 11:43:58 GMT
None of the turtle's attacks are AOE, so it's not going to give units as much trouble.
Animantarax armor: 20. Average damage for Bane Warriors on a charge: 27 per model. Average damage for Bane Knights on a charge: 24 per model. Average number of Warriors to kill turtle: 3 Average number of Knights to kill turtle: 5
Delivering 1/3 or 1/2 of a unit isn't too difficult. Dark Host has the 2 clouds to get them half way up the board, terrain is mostly irrelevant to banes, and our casters can cast spells such as Occultation or Veil of Mists to give stealth and block line of sight.
Obviously, some things are going to die, but honestly, this doesn't seem like that bad of a fight.
Jacks are going to have a harder time due to them being bigger and fewer in number. They get hit harder and you can't get as many of them next to the turtles, so they're going to struggle to kill it.
Scourge units don't hit very hard, so bad idea.
Infernal Machines could potentially get your Brute Thralls close enough to do work with Combo Strike.
Slaughter Fleet units are generally big and slow, but hit decently hard. It would be an uphill battle, but doable with the right caster.
Ghost Fleet doesn't hit hard, but they regenerate decently, so have a good chance to engage turtles.
And let's not forget the debuff game. Armor 20 isn't an issue. I play against a lot of Khador and that's the standard.
Finally, there's always the option to completely ignore the turtles and just jam some fast units up their caster's rear end for the win...
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 16, 2018 11:53:38 GMT
boxfox it's indeed not very good into infantry spam when playing the ranged game, however note that it's a cavalry model and can make impact attacks. It's possible to take it out with infantry, but you will still need to play a mean positioning game and as long as you don't give it enough to make it worth the investment, it can keep playing the ranged game until your slow ass weapon masters get into charge range.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Aug 16, 2018 13:26:45 GMT
Gamingdevil - Thanks! Animantarax armor: 20. Average damage for Bane Warriors on a charge: 27 per model. Average damage for Bane Knights on a charge: 24 per model. Average number of Warriors to kill turtle: 3 Average number of Knights to kill turtle: 5 Your math is off. Turtles have ARM 20 and 35 hit boxes. At 7 points of damage each, it takes 5 Bane Warriors on average dice to kill a turtle (or 9 Bane Knights at 4 points of damage each). Even with Parasite, it still takes 4 Bane Warrior charges to kill a turtle (though 4 can do it even with sub-average dice rolls). You'd need a 5 point ARM/STR swing (Skarre1 or Denny1 feat) to get down to 3 Bane Warriors killing a turtle on average dice.
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Post by boxfox on Aug 16, 2018 15:32:50 GMT
Ah, nice catch, psyllus. That'll teach me to post before my 2nd cup of coffee. gamingdevil, I missed the calvary part, but impact attacks are easily mitigated by keeping your units spaced correctly. You can't stop for impact attacks if your base doesn't have a legal place to park, and if they decide to ram the front line, it's doing you a favor since everything behind that line is going to beat the crap out of it on your turn. Dark Host clouds, terrain, and caster spells mitigate any range game the turtle has, so your cyberzombies get where you need them.
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