rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on Aug 14, 2018 13:48:39 GMT
Yes I generally think it's best to focus on either Overrun or Battle Lust rather than both thanks to his unfortunate FURY stat. If he were a 7 he could potentially be one of our better warlocks, but unfortunately he ends up being conflicted right from the very first list building steps, and therefore just a solid middle of the pack. He's not bad, just has a lot of lost potential. Still love his model, I just struggle to find a list I want to play for him that satisfies me.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 14, 2018 15:15:47 GMT
If you can find a composition that doesn't need it all at ones he's good,and I think raptors can do very wel with him. On turns when you are doing your overrunning you probably want raptors to play their ranged game, while you'd want to move them into melee with that hefty buff ones the overrunning is done.
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Post by copperflame on Aug 14, 2018 21:09:30 GMT
Overrun applies to a single model yes? (correct me if I'm wrong) - while you could put it on a single Raptor, and there are some uses for that, but that seems like it wouldn't be impactful enough. Battle Lust late game though is something I look for with them. Especially since you want (and typically can) to play conservatively with them to get the most value out of their high cost.
The struggle between Overrun - Battle Lust is a big issue for me. I've tried doing both but haven't found what works best yet (especially in theme). I concur with the thoughts about low fury. I think it is still a miss that Teraphs do not have on-hit fire. I haven't tried the new Carnivean's spray with him yet so maybe that is what I am looking for? I do love Typhon with K2.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 15, 2018 11:46:45 GMT
Overrun is Battlegroup model only.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 15, 2018 12:06:39 GMT
Yes I meant battlelust for a lategame melee unit, at times when the battlegroup is probably done overrunning. Raptors are probably the only real option for that, and if you can squeeze anyssa in as well that gives you a very scary late game charge that will get work done in previous turns as well.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 15, 2018 16:57:46 GMT
I wanted to put him in ravens because of raptors, hellmouths and maybe the AA, but then keep gravitating towards something like this in childeren with K2:
18 raptors 15 swordmasters 0 swordmaster UA 10 min croak raiders
11 nephilim boltthrower 18 zuriel 21 azrael
8 Anyssa 1 shepherd 1 spellmartyr 0 nyss warlord
At first I only had the raptors (and Anyssa) as a unit, but then I realised this battlegroup can get some crazy attack-vectors with 2x overrun in a turn and it doesn't need to be bigger to get work out of that spell. This opened a lot of space for other units, and I added the min croak for multiple purposes (enable feat, buff fire attacks, be a general nuisance).
This left 17 points to play with and I ended up going with nyss swordmen + free UA because it just gives so much more options on when to use battlelust, and they can get a lot of mileage out of the feat. Lots of attack possibilities with this army.
I also thought of blackfrost shard + witches + free incubi, 2nd boltthrower + 2nd nyss warlord or 2 bloodseers + free 2nd nyss warlord. I even considered the scather crew at some point. But because of that feat it seems like a simple unit of swordmen is too good a deal to pass up with the rest of that list.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 23, 2018 17:00:56 GMT
I guess I should make some updates. I've gotten in a few games. I've learned and I've sulked.
Kallus 2, how I still hate thee. Played into trolls; no feat. The stone aura can say no continuous effects. Played into Armored Corp, still no feat. When the speed 4 enemy models are already within 12" bottom of round 1, what's worth feating on?
Overrun is still the most satisfying movement shenanigan in the game. If only proteus had not gotten crit stationary off a retaliatory strike, I would have been pretty well off. But I'm going off in the weeds.
Game 1~ish Kallus 2 versus a weird KD list under Grissel 2. Glacial king, 3 units of runeshapers and some lights (axer, impaler, slag). I sat on my laurels turn two as I was read the Animi of the glacial king wrong. He told me "entering" the bubble would knock me down when the proper rule is "end of activation" inside bubble. So, the alpha was squandered for no good reason. He clumped everything around the GK so the striders ambushed on an empty zone and sat on it all game. Battle Lust chosen sqaushed the GK when it did commit. Azrael and proteus faffed about not really threatening much as he never got far enough up the board. Scenario victory bottom of 3.
Game 2~ish Butcher 2 Armored corp This theme is absolute BS. He can grant advance move to Drakhuns, and BE once he gets them. A unit of Kayazay assassins counts towards the bonus to give him an advance move. Desperate pace everywhere with tactician. It all amounts to some massive BS. Needless to say I lost horribly. Protues had overrun up to go in and smack Demo corp and then drag in ruin or the kodiak. But got made stationary off a retaliatory strike (17% chance). So that folded like cards. I can't stop shocktoopers. Steady and sturdy means I can't drag or smite them out of shield wall. It just went poorly all around. No feat. couldn't get to mid board. No ability to stay in scenario. Blightblades were useless in this match up yes, it happens. But all in all I'm stupidly upset by the power of other theme lists and model synergies.
Game 1.5 Fyanna 2 Primal terrors I am a pessimist and so I think I got purposefully countered on this one. Same opponent as trolls, same night, he has been grumpy that he "can never beat me". He dropped Vlad 1 conquest, behemoth, vlad, destroyer, widowmakers. So he had the exact tools to remove the hell mouths. He had the accuracy buff to ignore my feat (he never missed an 8 on 2 dice). Everything about it was a bit to perfect. However on round 4 Vlad was camping 1. He saw that Golab could get to him so he moved the guard dog and destroyer to block landing spots. I have overtake. I could have easily killed the dog and ate Vlad. I chose not to as I'm that kind of person, I hate when other people aren't enjoying the game. It's a tiny concession on my part to make another person happy. So I measured it, said "nope" and went on faffing about. All my stuff dies and I have no way to kill Blood of Kings Vlad camping 2. GG.
Thoughts Kallus 2 is still poorly designed. I would say at least 70% of my games with him so far I've not gotten to use his feat. I really want to like him, I do. But a caster that nearly never works is difficult to like. I can try and trade out for Raeks and try to utilize the field marshal to get fire out there. But it's still feels unreasonable to throw that much into something.
Fyanna 2 was a great attempt just a bad counter. I really think she can do plenty of work with the tools in PT. Maybe more spell martyrs. Possibly drop the BB for Angeli (still don't know what the plural is for that beast). Maybe even take the Archangel. Who knows, I think it has a lot of potential both cookie cutter wise (BB, all the chosen/monger/spears) and odd-ball fun.
New project I HATE armored corp. No way can I willfully trade 18 point heavies for 2 or 3 manowar. I have to find something that will deal with demo and shock troopers efficiently. I'm leaning on Lylyth 1 with the Throne. I think a liberal use of chain weapon will solve my sorrowful record of killing only 2 Shocktroopers in any given game. Pursuit can give my shooting beasts a minor about of safety. Parasite should set up easy kills for other guns. But I'm also torn between the throne and having access to raptors. So, as always, tons to test and little time for games.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 23, 2018 20:02:50 GMT
I honestly don't understand why you would have reservations about overrunning into vlad and tearing his face off. It's that threat and the weird attackangles that K2 can deliver his army at that make his game. Choosing not to use it... you might as well play without a caster.
Not saying you should allways play for the casterkill, but K2 should be able to dictate either when valuable models get wrecked, or scare them away from scenario.
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Post by voidbender on Aug 23, 2018 21:28:42 GMT
I honestly don't understand why you would have reservations about overrunning into vlad and tearing his face off. It's that threat and the weird attackangles that K2 can deliver his army at that make his game. Choosing not to use it... you might as well play without a caster. Not saying you should allways play for the casterkill, but K2 should be able to dictate either when valuable models get wrecked, or scare them away from scenario. The game against vlad was the one he used Fyanna rather than Kallus. It was overTAKE that could have gotten Golab to vlad. That is the exact assassinating vector that his opponent was trying to stop with his model placement. If you are beaten by the exact method you thought you had just countered, it can feel like the other side is overpowered and not a fun opponent, even when the problem lies with your "solution". From a feelings perspective i can understand his decision (even if i prefer to do it anyway and teach) and the perspective that he shouldn't HAVE to depend on such a mistake from his opponent.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 23, 2018 23:02:33 GMT
It's just how I enjoy a game. I don't enjoy shutting people down and making them feel bad. I like to see other people have a good time. I've played a very similar way against maaany people. Especially newer players. People are more receptive and will respond favorably to critique when they are in a good mood. So that's what I try to do. The first game against his trolls I couldn't exactly tell him his entire list being built around scrunching next to the GK was a bad idea... at the start of the game. But We did go over it afterwards by ME complaining about having to bunch up around the Blightbringer in PT. So it lead to how he can better use the GK and keep a scenario presence.
TLDR I'm a casual. I am overly nice to people. It's something i will continue doing.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 24, 2018 6:09:13 GMT
Totally understand and respect that, everybody should play with goal in mind. However, K2 depends on the movement shenanigans (I missed that you were playing with fyanna, but it doesn't really matter for this argument) so maybe it's not the best caster to use against a player who will hate it when you use them? Maybe use eThags or something who can be played very straightforward. Or maybe take him through the correct way to truly counter that overrun(take?)
Anyway, allways love your "casual" attitude, just didn't understand this choice. It's one thing keep everybody's enjoyment in mind, another to throw the game.
On K2, I think he should be build for every one of hos skills, despite his furystat. He needs to be flexible, going for a skew of some kind seems to easy counter. He needs to allways have a trick, even of it's modest.
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Post by apoc2148 on Aug 24, 2018 18:28:23 GMT
Game 2~ish Butcher 2 Armored corp This theme is absolute BS. He can grant advance move to Drakhuns, and BE once he gets them. A unit of Kayazay assassins counts towards the bonus to give him an advance move. Desperate pace everywhere with tactician. It all amounts to some massive BS. Needless to say I lost horribly. Protues had overrun up to go in and smack Demo corp and then drag in ruin or the kodiak. But got made stationary off a retaliatory strike (17% chance). So that folded like cards. I can't stop shocktoopers. Steady and sturdy means I can't drag or smite them out of shield wall. It just went poorly all around. No feat. couldn't get to mid board. No ability to stay in scenario. Blightblades were useless in this match up yes, it happens. But all in all I'm stupidly upset by the power of other theme lists and model synergies. If I'm reading the rules correctly, the movement from a slam isn't considered a push? So couldn't you have slammed the shocktroopers apart and then started killing them? Have Proteus slam the center of the formation apart and then go to town with his chain weapon, ignoring their shields and shield wall. Or go crit fishing with Azreal to break up their line.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 24, 2018 19:16:49 GMT
If I'm reading the rules correctly, the movement from a slam isn't considered a push? So couldn't you have slammed the shocktroopers apart and then started killing them? Have Proteus slam the center of the formation apart and then go to town with his chain weapon, ignoring their shields and shield wall. Or go crit fishing with Azreal to break up their line. I asked the same thing. I was told the slam off of crit smite would not work. But push and slam are specifically different game terms. I would need to look it up, but both guys there at the game are walking encyclopedias so they are more likely to be right than i am...
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Post by apoc2148 on Aug 24, 2018 19:41:02 GMT
If I'm reading the rules correctly, the movement from a slam isn't considered a push? So couldn't you have slammed the shocktroopers apart and then started killing them? Have Proteus slam the center of the formation apart and then go to town with his chain weapon, ignoring their shields and shield wall. Or go crit fishing with Azreal to break up their line. I asked the same thing. I was told the slam off of crit smite would not work. But push and slam are specifically different game terms. I would need to look it up, but both guys there at the game are walking encyclopedias so they are more likely to be right than i am... Walking encyclopedias or not, pretty sure they are wrong. Crit-smite is a weapon ability that triggers a slam, and the targeted model is considered to be "slammed", not "pushed" the distance away. Sturdy doesn't prevent slams or any abilities that can trigger a slam. They should read pages 45-46 of the primal along with pages 34-35.
It does still stop drag since it specifies that the model is "pushed" the distance.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 25, 2018 10:31:42 GMT
I asked the same thing. I was told the slam off of crit smite would not work. But push and slam are specifically different game terms. I would need to look it up, but both guys there at the game are walking encyclopedias so they are more likely to be right than i am... Walking encyclopedias or not, pretty sure they are wrong. Crit-smite is a weapon ability that triggers a slam, and the targeted model is considered to be "slammed", not "pushed" the distance away. Sturdy doesn't prevent slams or any abilities that can trigger a slam. They should read pages 45-46 of the primal along with pages 34-35.
It does still stop drag since it specifies that the model is "pushed" the distance.
As an Armoured Corps player, I can confirm that they were wrong. They can't be Pushed or Knocked Down, that's it. They can still be thrown, and they can still be slammed, and so on. If your opponent has arranged his Shocktroopers into a triangle of three, your slam probably won't move the model as they effectively immediately contact another model of equal base size. And it won't knock them down as they are immune to that. But it is still slammed, and both the slammed and the contacted model take damage from that normally. There's a player on the Khador forums who is frequently complaining about this, as the Hurricane's Storm Emitters keep mashing his Shocktroopers!
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