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Post by streetpizza on Aug 5, 2018 12:23:36 GMT
So I think its safe to say that secret masters is failure on almost all fronts and has landed with a resounding thud in the community at large. There are some outliers of people using it but for the most part it is universally maligned. I've been on a mine site for the past three weeks with nothing but time to think and have decided to take a deep dive on the theme with an eye to how I would actually try and fix it mechanically. These are my own musings but I'm interested to see if you guys think this would be enough to actually get it to see table time or if I'm off my rocker into OP land or overly complex.
One of my personal gripes with this theme, and circle themes in general, is that blackclads can't lead circle troops into battle like they would in the fluff. Previously I thought that adding the clause that your minion option in each theme could be a blackclad option instead would fix this but PP pretty much shot down these kind of options in the Ret CID by saying it would never happen with mage hunters. I think instead it would be great to solve the inconsistency with Secret Masters.
So for me the theme should be something like this:
Secret Masters of ...
The blackclads are few in number, but their work is constan and endless. Only a small handful of these druids can be devoted to any single task at a given time. But the masters of the wilderness are cunning. They have woven a web of many debts among the tharn, people of woods, and the denizens of the wildnerness, whom they can call upon to fight on their behalf.
Composition Rules When selecting Secret Master as your theme force choose one key word from the following to complete the theme name (Tharn, Wolfsworn, Minion).
- Circle Blackclad warlcoks and Wurmwood - Non-Character Warbeasts and Brennos - Blackclad Models / units and Wold Stalkers (who should be updated to be a blackclad unit) - Shifting Stone units - Gallows Grove Solos - Models / units with the selected key word for this theme force
Benefits
- For every 15pts of blackclad models / units in this army you can add one medium or small based circle solo, keyword solo or blackclad command attachment to the army free of cost. Gallows groves solos may be taken in pairs as a free option. Free models do not count towards the total point value of blackclad models / units in the army when calculating this bonus. - For each blackclad solo included in the army one non-blackclad, non-advanced deploy unit gains advanced move
Secret Masters of Minions Benefits - Minion models become friendly faction models - Blackclad models gain Sacrificial Pawn [Minion warrior models]
Secret Masters of the Wolfsworn Benefits - Wolfsworn models gain prowl
Secret Masters of the Tharn Benefits - One tharn unit per turn gains the mirrage benefit (During your maintenance phase models in the selected unit may be placed completely within 2" of their current location).
With these changes we would also need a single rule change:
Summon Vortex - Clouds are not bound to the model casting them and stay if the model dies. This would allow the mist riders to actually set a cloud wall to cover the advancement of the army and for the druids unit to meaningfully protect back line support. (text change required to make this clear withing the actual ability rule)
With all of these changes we would have a functional cloud wall theme. Each theme choice has meaningful limitations in model selections but wouldn't hamper the ability of the theme force to generate meaningful free point options. It gives access to minion solos as free options so we wouldn't be limited to just wayfarer's and stone shapers and the ability to take gallows groves in pairs cements it as our spell casting theme. Tharn are still better in DH but have a new delivery option in this theme. Wolfsworn do not have access to war wolves in this theme and their own theme is better for generating wolfsworn points and ambushing wolves. Minion choices finally become meaningful here. Lastly we'd finally be able to have blackclads lead our own troops.
If you did decide to build exclusively with blackclad models you would generate 5 free solo options which could include minions but I struggle to see where this would lead to overpowered combinations given the limitations on our selection of blackclad models units (double fulcrum maybe?). Some good combos could be 2x gremlin swarms, maximus, long chops and Eilish, or 2 Thrullgs, Alten, and 2 bokurs. It does result in a lot of free points but I already see mercs hitting these kind of totals in a less restrictive theme. If they really wanted to limit the points then limit it to non-character solos for free.
Lastly it ditches the lackluster upkeep benefit for something more thematic where the blackclads are driving their chosen pawns into the vanguard to take the brunt of the enemy's assault for them.
What do you guys think. Am I off my rocker here or would this finally get our main faction unit/theme the druids to finally see play?
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Aug 5, 2018 16:32:27 GMT
Well, the most abusive thing I can see in the Minion version is Sacral Vault, celestial fulcrum, and Wold Wrath. +3+3d6 to hit with magic seems over the top, but it would cost a lot of points and board presence. Rock hammers and stone sprays will be brutal. Kwaak&Gub double venom, Brun's Frost hammer, Lanyssa... All nasty, but maybe not intolerable? The warlock spell assassination may be far too reliable, though. Mohsar's crevasse would be insane! Three crevasses at magic 11 and an extra die to hit?
This (secret masters: minions) seems likely to be the most overpowered part of your idea to me, but it might be tolerable?
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Post by kuririnad on Aug 5, 2018 16:43:48 GMT
I think it's an interesting idea. To keep it more balanced, maybe pattern it more after Llaelese Resistance, such that you can only take 2 of the keyword units. Would make it feel less like an alternate version of their host themes, and maybe each theme druids get sac pawn <keyword>.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 5, 2018 16:54:06 GMT
Well, the most abusive thing I can see in the Minion version is Sacral Vault, celestial fulcrum, and Wold Wrath. +3+3d6 to hit with magic seems over the top, but it would cost a lot of points and board presence. Rock hammers and stone sprays will be brutal. Kwaak&Gub double venom, Brun's Frost hammer, Lanyssa... All nasty, but maybe not intolerable? The warlock spell assassination may be far too reliable, though. Mohsar's crevasse would be insane! Three crevasses at magic 11 and an extra die to hit? This (secret masters: minions) seems likely to be the most overpowered part of your idea to me, but it might be tolerable? I see what you're saying. Intent is to limit it to units and solos so if we add the warrior model modifier that should clear up the abuse. The openness of the minions side of the equation really does make it tricky. I looked at doing an extra one and separating Farrow and Blindwater but there didn't appear to be a good keyword for Blindwater units.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 5, 2018 16:56:35 GMT
I think it's an interesting idea. To keep it more balanced, maybe pattern it more after Llaelese Resistance, such that you can only take 2 of the keyword units. Would make it feel less like an alternate version of their host themes, and maybe each theme druids get sac pawn <keyword>. To me the flavor text saying "Only a small handful of these druids can be devoted to any single task at a given time" is what pushes me to want to allow more of the alternate units. Druids really should be an elite core leading a larger group of chaff. Balance wise you may be correct though.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 5, 2018 17:31:11 GMT
I like where you are going with this. I do think with any theme that’s similar to irregulars where you have basically unlimited options you need to be careful of abuses.
EG: You can introduce rage and lucky shot into our faction through We&SJ or Rorsh and brine.
You also end up with a really strong diverse force out the gate, that can be built for almost any situation. You can go beast heavy, with FF Lesser warlocks, and still get free points from it. Star crossed and FF ninja pig with Krueger 2...no thank you.
So I’m order to feasibly balance this out we need to acknowledge some things about minions:
1: Jank: Minions are arguably one of the jankiest factions in the game, with lots of interactions and movement shenanigans. 2: They have amazing support solos who would turn our nests to 11 with FF applied. Enlivened Purebloods? Yeah screw your attempt to trade. 3: Lesser warlocks are really good and making them FF allows us to support their beasts (Stone skin Brun and Lug, Rorsh and brine with Krueger2 or Wurmwood, dahlia and scaryth, arguably the best leaders in the game, supported by our in faction buffs AND minion support.
So with these things you need to limit the themes ability to abuse the interactions, either by limiting what can be taken (say not allowing leaders which I would prefer to avoid) or by Limiting how many of the keyword models can be taken, Just like with LR.
I really think, this theme does not need drastic changes, allowing Wurmwood, fixing our living beast stable and then a change to the interaction or allowance on minions in the theme should be enough. Say 2 Units, And 2 Solos, or let it only be one of each but make them FF to limit abuse and make us make hard choices.
I like where your thought process is going and I really hope we get a Fix for Secret masters writhin the next year. So much wasted potential there.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 5, 2018 18:10:41 GMT
I like where you are going with this. I do think with any theme that’s similar to irregulars where you have basically unlimited options you need to be careful of abuses. EG: You can introduce rage and lucky shot into our faction through We&SJ or Rorsh and brine. You also end up with a really strong diverse force out the gate, that can be built for almost any situation. You can go beast heavy, with FF Lesser warlocks, and still get free points from it. Star crossed and FF ninja pig with Krueger 2...no thank you. So I’m order to feasibly balance this out we need to acknowledge some things about minions: 1: Jank: Minions are arguably one of the jankiest factions in the game, with lots of interactions and movement shenanigans. 2: They have amazing support solos who would turn our nests to 11 with FF applied. Enlivened Purebloods? Yeah screw your attempt to trade. 3: Lesser warlocks are really good and making them FF allows us to support their beasts (Stone skin Brun and Lug, Rorsh and brine with Krueger2 or Wurmwood, dahlia and scaryth, arguably the best leaders in the game, supported by our in faction buffs AND minion support. So with these things you need to limit the themes ability to abuse the interactions, either by limiting what can be taken (say not allowing leaders which I would prefer to avoid) or by Limiting how many of the keyword models can be taken, Just like with LR. I really think, this theme does not need drastic changes, allowing Wurmwood, fixing our living beast stable and then a change to the interaction or allowance on minions in the theme should be enough. Say 2 Units, And 2 Solos, or let it only be one of each but make them FF to limit abuse and make us make hard choices. I like where your thought process is going and I really hope we get a Fix for Secret masters writhin the next year. So much wasted potential there. Honestly, none of those interactions are raising immediate red flags for me (and your fix of 1 FF unit/1 FF solo doesn't actually address any abuses). - Looking at the solos, the interactions we'd gain from making them FF are...the Bone Shrine, the Gatorman Witch Doctor, and Kwaak. The Bone Shrine offers a bit of fury efficiency, but occupies much the same space as a gallows grove. Healing Aura vs. +1 Fury (but potential horrible drawback) and immobile...I'm not sure one offers a clear advantage. Kwaak is awesome, but...are enlivened Circle beasts that much more of a problem than Minion beasts? Enliven doesn't make you immune to free strikes, and many Circle beasts are at serious risk of dying from a charge attack + free strike (plus all of the ways that currently exist to pop Enliven before committing - ie with shooting - work better and more reliably on lower armor beasts.) The Gatorman Witch Doctor is, again, interesting, but Death Ride is wasted on Circle models, and after the CID almost every Circle beast will have pathfinder, so you're missing out on half of the benefit there. To me, the only potentially concerning interaction is Kwaak. And if he's a problem, limiting it to one FF solo doesn't particularly help. - I find it a bit curious that you picked Krueger2 and Wurmwood as your two examples of warlocks that are likely to abuse FF minion models, considering they're probably our two most friendly-faction agnostic warlocks (what is Krueger2 doing with FF ninja pig that he can't already do with him?). Krueger2's only rule that cares about FF models is sheltering hand, while Wurmwood has nothing on his card that cares about faction, his spells are all offensive/non-targeting. The warlocks that would get the most out of this would be the Kromacs (not allowed in the theme), Baldur1, and maybe the Morvahnas, depending on how they turn out. - I'm not really worried by the possibility of animi being added to the faction by lesser warlocks, though it is probably the most concerning thing about the proposed theme. Rage is going to set you back 33 points, for instance, all tied to a moderately durable solo. How many Circle beasts are you fitting into the list after that? Are you getting any free points? Or minion units to take advantage of the other theme benefit? Same goes for elasticity - neat trick, but it's not a game-changer. Lucky Shot is largely worthless in a faction which has, what? 2 AOEs? On a colossal and a battle engine? etc. Rage is facially the most problematic, but as with the possibility of stacking a Bronzeback to PS 25 in Disciples of Agony with Enrage/Rage/Fury, I don't think that doing so is likely to be worth the cost in most cases. Regardless, I think that while this addresses one of the problems with druids (they're support units that are being forced to act as mainline units, because of the absence of other options), it doesn't solve their other issue, which is that they are a very poor support unit. The change to summon vortex would be a good start, but not, I think, enough to make regular druids compelling (particularly when mistriders cloudwall so much better).
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Post by jisidro on Aug 5, 2018 18:20:11 GMT
I like the idea behind it. Represents the circle fluff much better than the current secret masters theme.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 5, 2018 20:37:31 GMT
If you have ever seen Rorsh and Brine used in tandem with TK you would know.
The issue is, with FF, they can count for free points, and benefit from other buffs, like getting primalled by a gorax where they normally wouldn’t get to Benefit from primal without bringing a Battle boar tied to Rorsh. Basically if you do it right, Brine will get 1 Full advance, TK, and a charge giving him a 16” non linear threat. (18 with Hunters Mark and 20 if you also TK or Gallows the caster/target model) add in Krugers ability to clear lanes and pull things out of position and suddenly it’s kind of scary. All of this, for no negative cost to your army, as it counts for free points and is naturally supported by options you were already taking.
That’s the issue, minions have some really good jank that’s hard to anticipate or understand without seeing it or playing it in a game first.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 5, 2018 21:17:51 GMT
If you have ever seen Rorsh and Brine used in tandem with TK you would know. The issue is, with FF, they can count for free points, and benefit from other buffs, like getting primalled by a gorax where they normally wouldn’t get to Benefit from primal without bringing a Battle boar tied to Rorsh. Basically if you do it right, Brine will get 1 Full advance, TK, and a charge giving him a 16” non linear threat. (18 with Hunters Mark and 20 if you also TK or Gallows the caster/target model) add in Krugers ability to clear lanes and pull things out of position and suddenly it’s kind of scary. All of this, for no negative cost to your army, as it counts for free points and is naturally supported by options you were already taking. That’s the issue, minions have some really good jank that’s hard to anticipate or understand without seeing it or playing it in a game first. If rorsh and brine aren't OP with sturm and drang's TK why would they be OP with Kreuger? The interaction you've described is already there in minions with Lanyssa and the farrow builds. They've got sprinting road hogs to clear lanes so pretty much everything listed is similar in both factions. That and we can already take them in SM as is and it ain't gaining traction. If it really is a concern though add one word and it all goes away. Friendly Minion WARRIOR models become friendly faction. Also note that the way I've written it only black clad models count for free points. If you start taking the lesser warlocks you start limiting the free point totals. I think you're spot on that minions is where abuses would lie and there would definitely need to be a ton of testing done. If push really came to shove a quick change to only allow non-character options would solve most problems while still leaving the theme in a good place. The only one you've brought up that really has me scratching my head about possible abuses is enlivened ghostly purebloods. Come to think of it once the thunder chicken gets deceptively mobile enliven could be abusive there to. Stupid Kwaak ... ruining my fun.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 5, 2018 21:34:23 GMT
Regardless, I think that while this addresses one of the problems with druids (they're support units that are being forced to act as mainline units, because of the absence of other options), it doesn't solve their other issue, which is that they are a very poor support unit. The change to summon vortex would be a good start, but not, I think, enough to make regular druids compelling (particularly when mistriders cloudwall so much better). I don't think you give regular druids enough credit. With the proposed change to cloudwalls and a small points decrease I think would actually be fine. Their ability to knock things down at range and push models out of scenario would be pretty valuable if we could actually back them up with other models that can clean infantry (reeves) or do damage to heavies (new male tharn). If we are going to try and fix everything in one go then, I can haz Mist Riders at Mat 6 plz? I did model the theme benefits for our in faction stuff after abilities that the druids already have to thematically represent their leadership effect.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 5, 2018 23:21:03 GMT
streetpizza because storm and Stang don’t have the ability to clear lames as well as Circle can I just would rather be safe than sorry. Irregulars is arguably one of the strongest of not the best theme in the game. And it’s because you have all the benefits of a theme with basically none of the drawbacks.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 6, 2018 2:13:39 GMT
streetpizza because storm and Stang don’t have the ability to clear lames as well as Circle can I just would rather be safe than sorry. Irregulars is arguably one of the strongest of not the best theme in the game. And it’s because you have all the benefits of a theme with basically none of the drawbacks. Everything you mentioned is currently available in Circle, though? That's kind of the point. Nothing Krueger2 does with Ninja Pig (and I'm aware that it's pretty good, I've played it) would be changed by making Rorsh and Brine FF. You can even primal it with a battle boar if you want to, since you're not currently playing Krueger in any theme that can take a gorax. TKing Brine is OK, and I've played around with it, but have ultimately found him to not be worth including over another Geomancer in Krueger2, given that my Krueger2 list is intended to be an anchor. Brine is an incredibly matchup dependent piece, that is good for getting 'oops I win' moments against unfamiliar opponents, but he lacks flexibility into most of the things I want to drop Krueger into.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 6, 2018 2:16:34 GMT
Regardless, I think that while this addresses one of the problems with druids (they're support units that are being forced to act as mainline units, because of the absence of other options), it doesn't solve their other issue, which is that they are a very poor support unit. The change to summon vortex would be a good start, but not, I think, enough to make regular druids compelling (particularly when mistriders cloudwall so much better). I don't think you give regular druids enough credit. With the proposed change to cloudwalls and a small points decrease I think would actually be fine. Their ability to knock things down at range and push models out of scenario would be pretty valuable if we could actually back them up with other models that can clean infantry (reeves) or do damage to heavies (new male tharn). If we are going to try and fix everything in one go then, I can haz Mist Riders at Mat 6 plz? I did model the theme benefits for our in faction stuff after abilities that the druids already have to thematically represent their leadership effect. Druids were my favorite unit in Mk2, and I have tried...many things...to make them work. In my opinion, they are a unit that actively makes your life harder if you try and use them. They eat up clock, they trick you into thinking they offer real utility, but they just...don't. 90% of the games I've played with them, they end up being worse Battlemages for more points.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 6, 2018 10:29:50 GMT
streetpizza because storm and Stang don’t have the ability to clear lames as well as Circle can I just would rather be safe than sorry. Irregulars is arguably one of the strongest of not the best theme in the game. And it’s because you have all the benefits of a theme with basically none of the drawbacks. Everything you mentioned is currently available in Circle, though? That's kind of the point. Nothing Krueger2 does with Ninja Pig (and I'm aware that it's pretty good, I've played it) would be changed by making Rorsh and Brine FF. You can even primal it with a battle boar if you want to, since you're not currently playing Krueger in any theme that can take a gorax. TKing Brine is OK, and I've played around with it, but have ultimately found him to not be worth including over another Geomancer in Krueger2, given that my Krueger2 list is intended to be an anchor. Brine is an incredibly matchup dependent piece, that is good for getting 'oops I win' moments against unfamiliar opponents, but he lacks flexibility into most of the things I want to drop Krueger into. It’s about investing in that peice. To play him currently, you are dropping 15 for those 2, 7 for the battle boar, and taking away from free options and benefits from your theme. If they become FF, you don’t need to invest like you would in another theme, it just comes naturally. No Brine is always good. 16” non linear threat (possibly 18 or 20 if you really get it going) is really hard to plan for or stay away from. Something Krueger just kind of exacerbates. This is just one example as well, my biggest oh noes, concern is enlivened Purebloods because they are pretty darn hard to trade with.
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