germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Aug 1, 2018 4:09:10 GMT
Deathjack we all know and love, pricey though he is... Kharybdis/Barathrum are pretty nifty, too, if more limited.
But I don't see the other character jacks as much... particularly Cankerworm, Malice and Nightmare.
Thoughts on our characters as I'm planning what to get beyond Deathjack/Cankerworm... so Malice/Nightmare yay or nay?
FYI, I intend to run non-Gaspy3 Black Industries (Denny2/Scav... maybe Goreshade1) for what it's worth to mention...
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 1, 2018 6:57:01 GMT
If running Gaspy, I always try to include Cankerworm. He's really good with him. Armor Piercing attack, reposition, stealth, annoying damage grid, base Pathfinder, he's got it all. He's actually amazing with Asphyxious 3, but since everyone is so hung up on Slayer spam, he's fallen out of favor (9 points is awkward to combine with the Slayers). I play him in my (non-spam) version of the list and he gets work done. I would actually recommend giving Asphyxious 3 a try. Slayer spam is definitely not mandatory and he's a lot of fun.
I like Nightmare, but only available with Denny, where it's best anyway because of gaining Stealth. Prey and Ghostly are a great toolbox and Grab & Smash is not to be underestimated. While he can bring a lot to the list, he's actually not worth the 18(!) points for the static 10" threat range.
Malice is one I've put, I think, on the table about once in MK3. She has decent control abilities, but lacks in damage output. I usually prefer to just have more punch, but if you like playing Reapers, you'll definitely like Malice as well. One other problem is that she's only available in BI and IM. The latter is just not played very often in general and in BI you usually just want to flood the table with punchy jacks. Still not a bad choice when looking for something different.
You forgot Erebus, who suffers from not being in a theme and really only being good with Scaverous anyway (14/20 Poltergeist is not bad + souls) The problem is that he's pillow fisted and Feast of Worms is a really poor ARM debuff, so even there you won't see him all that often. Scaverous is also not too popular at the moment, so there's that
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Aug 1, 2018 12:25:32 GMT
You forgot Erebus, who suffers from not being in a theme and really only being good with Scaverous anyway (14/20 Poltergeist is not bad + souls) The problem is that he's pillow fisted and Feast of Worms is a really poor ARM debuff, so even there you won't see him all that often. Scaverous is also not too popular at the moment, so there's that I remembered right after hitting post, but figured someone would pick up on that. Stationary on hit would be great if MAT 7 wasn't already so ubiquitous on the jacks that BI tends to take anyway, guess it's neat more than anything else. And there is a good reason I really want to play Scav... I'm afraid I must report my addiction to TK... coming from Ret and Rahn assassinations, I gravitate towards anything with TK, plus the fact that DJ and WSC can use it, too, Scav's feat makes it cheaper to cast and more reliable to pull off, I'm close to frothing at the mouth! But true, I don't care much for the fact that while Erebus' defensive stats are deceptive (14/18(22), but still on a Slayer's damage track), I still can't quite get my head around the best way to use him 'cos for his points, his dps is kinda rubbish (for him and a WWS, I'd take two Slayers and be able to bash heads way more effectively IMO). *shrug*
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Aug 1, 2018 12:42:03 GMT
Saw Gaspy3 Malice in a tournament last weekend. ARM24 vs melee and ARM26 vs shooting is no joke for mere 5 points…
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 1, 2018 12:46:23 GMT
I remembered right after hitting post, but figured someone would pick up on that. Stationary on hit would be great if MAT 7 wasn't already so ubiquitous on the jacks that BI tends to take anyway, guess it's neat more than anything else. And there is a good reason I really want to play Scav... I'm afraid I must report my addiction to TK... coming from Ret and Rahn assassinations, I gravitate towards anything with TK, plus the fact that DJ and WSC can use it, too, Scav's feat makes it cheaper to cast and more reliable to pull off, I'm close to frothing at the mouth! But true, I don't care much for the fact that while Erebus' defensive stats are deceptive (14/18(22), but still on a Slayer's damage track), I still can't quite get my head around the best way to use him 'cos for his points, his dps is kinda rubbish (for him and a WWS, I'd take two Slayers and be able to bash heads way more effectively IMO). *shrug* If you're already playing Scaverous in BI anyway, where there are no good units for Soul Harvester, then I would consider adding him. Not having to cast Soul Harvester at all is kind of neat. Perhaps something like this? conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0U371w3a1f1f0te2kw3h1h2B73Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Black Industries [Scaverous 1] Lord Exhumator Scaverous [+27] - Deathjack [23] - Erebus [16] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Aiakos, Scourge of the Meredius [4] - Kharybdis [17] Iron Lich Overseer [5] - Stalker [8] Warwitch Siren [4] Croe's Cutthroats (max) [16]
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Post by tiberius on Aug 6, 2018 12:08:54 GMT
I personally like Erebus with his freezy fists even though they don't make a lot of sense to me fluff wise.
For me, our best character jacks are Deathjack, Barathrum (cost for efficiency and damage output), and cankerworm.
Next tier would include erebus.
Lastly I put malice and Nightmare. Nightmare used to be in a top tier for me, until he lost a lot of this threat range, going from 2" reach to 1" and losing the 2" from prey. Auto stealth with Denny and full time ghostly are really good though and he does hit really hard when he gets to something. So maybe move him up to the second tier.
Malice used to be better when she started with a soul and you could come out of the gate and reel in another warjack, beat on it, and then dominate it to turn it around and set it up to be finished off by something else in your list. Now, getting the soul is a bit more difficult as you don't want malice that near the front line, she is just too fragile and her output is inconsistent. I prefer a normal reaper for the 2" melee and sustained attack to be honest.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Aug 6, 2018 16:03:52 GMT
Deathjack is the character jack I use most. Expensive, but really good with a wide variety of our Casters. I’ll always bring him with Deneghra2, Scaverous, Aiakos2, & Mortenebra2 assuming I’m in a Theme that allows him. Those 4 Casters are Casters I consider playing in Black Industries solely to gain access to Deathjack.
Barathrum I only ever play with Terminus & Coven. Terminus’s battlegroup will almost always be Barathrum + 2 Deathripper. Coven I’ll occasionally take Barathrum in Scourge. None of the other Scourge Casters I play actually want him, and I can’t think of any Cryx caster that wants to play in Scourge or break Theme for access to him.
Erebus I only play with Scaverous. That said he’s in every Scaverous list. The second Erebus gets added to a Theme that theme becomes an immediate consideration for Venethrax & Terminus. Nobody else wants him.
Nightmare is overcosted. I’ll occasionally play him with Deneghra1&2, it really depends on the list. Nobody but Deneghra should ever consider Nightmare, even if he does get added to a Theme, as he’s absolute garbage without Stealth.
Kharybdis should probably be in 100% of Aiakos2 lists. He’s a solid include in any SFR lists, but I don’t think I’d ever play in SFR to gain access to him. I personally don’t use him with anyone since I don’t really play Aiakos2, and I think SFR is better with Scavengers or Leviathans.
Cankerworm is good, but not worth breaking Theme for. He’ll only ever see play with an Asphyxious. The biggest thing holding him back is the fact that Asphyxious1&2 have 0 Synergy with him & both want Arc Nodes, so if you want to take 2 nodes & a heavy you need to spend army points on Canker. The only list I play regularly that features Cankerworm is Asphyxious2 SFR where Cankerworm basically a harder to kill Scavenger. I love him, but he’s just really awkward to fit in lists.
Malice I think is terrible. I can’t think of a single time where I’d rather have Malice over a Reaper. The Reaper has better Melee output, and extra weapon, and costs 2 points less. I personally tore my Malice apart to build a 5th Slayer out of her. No regrets.
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Post by tiberius on Aug 6, 2018 18:47:59 GMT
I keep forgetting about Kharybdis, probably because I don't have a lot of play time with him. I need to break that guy out and use him a bit more, but he does appear to be really solid. I think Skarre 3 will like him too, but yeah, Aiakos 2 wants him all the time.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Aug 6, 2018 23:01:49 GMT
Nightmare is overcosted. I’ll occasionally play him with Deneghra1&2, it really depends on the list. Nobody but Deneghra should ever consider Nightmare, even if he does get added to a Theme, as he’s absolute garbage without Stealth. Would you consider Nightmare on Deneghra0?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Aug 6, 2018 23:46:49 GMT
Nightmare is overcosted. I’ll occasionally play him with Deneghra1&2, it really depends on the list. Nobody but Deneghra should ever consider Nightmare, even if he does get added to a Theme, as he’s absolute garbage without Stealth. Would you consider Nightmare on Deneghra0? No. Leaving the unfluffyness of it aside, Deneghra0 doesn’t want Melee jacks. She wants Arc Nodes and/or Gun jacks. Nightmare doesn’t bring anything unique to a list. He can’t become a beserking overtaker like Erebus can with Terminus, or have Counter Charging freeze fists like Erebus with Venethrax, or Guided Fire Crit Blind Spray like Kharybdis with Skarre3. Nightmare is just an expensive beatstick, a Slayer that hits a ton harder against his prey, but costs almost double the price. Deneghra0 wants to be casting her Armor Debuff every turn. If she’s boosting the hit like she should, she likely has 0 focus to hand out to her battlegroup. Nightmare’s only good when he’s fully loaded. If you’re only using the power up focus you’re better off with a Slayer since it can Combo Strike to hit even harder than Nightmare with its single attack. If paying 8 points for a Stealthy harder hitting Slayer was actually worth it we’d see more Seethers on ILOs. Overseethers are basically Nightmare. Same base pow, Dark Shroud instead of Prey, same Mat. Nobody plays ILO Seethers. If you can’t afford to fully load Nightmare every turn of the game, you shouldn’t be running Nightmare.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 7, 2018 6:36:26 GMT
Deller I agree with your assessments but note that you don't necessarily have to play SFR or Aiakos 2 to gain access to Kharybdis. With the new journeyman rules, you can also gain access to it by playing Aiakos 1 in IM (ok, whatever) and BI. He's a bit pillowfisted, but the threat ranges make your opponents respect him. I actually think he's good in SFR because +2/+2 is just what he needs, but no Prowl unless under Aiakos and being very expensive to pay for when not under your caster does make him hard to add.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 7, 2018 18:42:48 GMT
Regarding Deathjack, during his activation, is he able to cast more than one spell if his focus allows it? I just assumed I understood how he worked, but now I’m not so sure. Unlike a Warcaster, I thought he; activated, did movement, and then his actions, like attack or use one spell. He would be way more powerful than I thought if he could do somehow do multiple things.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Aug 7, 2018 23:39:36 GMT
Regarding Deathjack, during his activation, is he able to cast more than one spell if his focus allows it? I just assumed I understood how he worked, but now I’m not so sure. Unlike a Warcaster, I thought he; activated, did movement, and then his actions, like attack or use one spell. He would be way more powerful than I thought if he could do somehow do multiple things. Deathjack casts spells like a Warcaster, he does not use his action to cast spells like a spell slave does. He can cast before moving, after moving but before attacking, or in between attacking. He can cast as many spells as he wants provided he can pay the cost.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 8, 2018 2:26:13 GMT
Holy crud! That is so much better than I thought/assumed it was. I thought he was worth his points before, now definitely! Thanks for clearing it up for me.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Aug 8, 2018 7:33:10 GMT
Yea Deathjack is in this weird points bracket where he’s an overcosted beatstick with 50% of our caster stable and an insane spellcasting monstrosity with the other 50%. You have cases like Skarre3’s Deathjack where he’s just an overcosted Melee better since he can’t cast a single spell on Skarre’s card, but then you have cases like Deneghra2’s Deathjack that can cast spells like Hellmouth, Breath Stealer, & Venom while also being a Melee beatstick.
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