|
Post by shortcutbacon on Apr 12, 2017 4:52:15 GMT
Hay gang, so long story short Ive recently picked my minions back up for a not so local steamroller, feeling a touch out of practice Im having some creative trouble in designing a paired list.
Currently I sport my Helga list 3 for 3. Obvious problem being, It doesnt play particularly well into armor.
Helga Thornfall Alliance Battleboar Warhog Warhog Roadhog
Farrow Brigands (Max) Farrow Warlord Farrow Brigands (Max) Farrow Warlord
Farrow Commandos (min)
Efferit scout Efferit scout Saxon Orrik (A slight alteration on Gaston's Helga drop)
Owning no Gators ive no choice but to bring more bacon to the party. Any ideas on an Armor cracker? (Own all Farrow casters)
|
|
|
Post by gdead909 on Apr 12, 2017 7:03:38 GMT
Armor crack on the pig side is either carver or Dr Ark. Ark is better at single target damage like a colossal. Carved is good at spreading the damage everywhere
|
|
|
Post by superrunes on Apr 12, 2017 7:15:41 GMT
I would recommend slaughterhousers, they are pretty good at armourcracking, and with two units of brigands to shield them they can provide a nice counterpunch and a late game finish. I would slim down the battle group to fit them in, I always run only lights for shooting and fighting a bit in combat.
|
|
|
Post by gdead909 on Apr 12, 2017 9:47:48 GMT
If you're running carver warhogs can kill the world! Had one solo a Hyperion under feat turn.
|
|
|
Post by Korianneder on Apr 12, 2017 12:07:57 GMT
You want armor cracking? Let me introduce you to Dr. Arkadius. This is a man that kills the world and does it from 17-20 inches away. Carver gives you one good turn of damage output with his feat, but then outside of that he is limited. Arkadius has forced evolution which when combined with primal gets a warhog up to pow 22 every turn. Two warhogs a turn if you cycle it. He also has crippling grasp if you really need it. (Note: Casting crippling grasp is usually a bad idea because Arkadius has the oldest of man stats. The only time I've used it is when I cast it on an Archangel and then proceeded to kill a full health Archangel with a primaled, forced evolution Gorax.)
My Arkadius list is
Arkadius - Thornfall Alliance - Targ - War Hog x3 - Road Hog x2 - Gun Boar x2 - Gorax Rager Swamp Gobber Chef
All the heavies with retalitory strike and crit knock down really has the chance to swing a game all of a sudden. The gun boars are a decent ranged threat and the gorax is there as a primal bot, same as in circle. Arkadius is pretty much guaranteed to get the first attack in and he can kill anything his models get to.
|
|
|
Post by stokerd on Apr 13, 2017 8:15:06 GMT
I run almost the exact same Arkadius list (but I run a Battle Boar instead of the Gorax) and it works really well. However, when I know I am facing major ARM (like Khador 'jack spam), I always find myself reaching for Carver:
Lord Carver - Thornfall Alliance - War Hog x4 - Road Hog x2 - Battle Boar Maximus
The whole group is ARM20/21, allowing them to weather any shooting, and with Mobility, they aren't that far behind the Arkadius list. Heck, with all of the terrain my group plays with, the Pathfinder actually puts them ahead of the Arkadius list at times. One turn of running 14" (or close to) generally sets them up for their 10" charge the next turn, and Overtake plus an additional die means they wreck anything - Infantry, Warjacks/Warbeasts, or Colossals. While it may only be on Feat turn, you can easily clear out anything that can retaliate or defeat ARM21, and then it's just a matter of cleaning up.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on Apr 13, 2017 8:21:58 GMT
I run almost the exact same Arkadius list (but I run a Battle Boar instead of the Gorax) and it works really well. However, when I know I am facing major ARM (like Khador 'jack spam), I always find myself reaching for Carver: Lord Carver - Thornfall Alliance - War Hog x4 - Road Hog x2 - Battle Boar Maximus The whole group is ARM20/21, allowing them to weather any shooting, and with Mobility, they aren't that far behind the Arkadius list. Heck, with all of the terrain my group plays with, the Pathfinder actually puts them ahead of the Arkadius list at times. One turn of running 14" (or close to) generally sets them up for their 10" charge the next turn, and Overtake plus an additional die means they wreck anything - Infantry, Warjacks/Warbeasts, or Colossals. While it may only be on Feat turn, you can easily clear out anything that can retaliate or defeat ARM21, and then it's just a matter of cleaning up. Mobility still puts them a loooooong way behind Arkadius's battlegroup. If Arkadius has to travel through nothing but rough terrain the entire way, he only threats 2" less than Carver does. Unless you're playing on a battlefield that is 100% rough terrain though, it's pretty easy to avoid that.
|
|
|
Post by gdead909 on Apr 13, 2017 14:01:17 GMT
I know I prefer carver but that's just because he is a tank himself.
|
|
|
Post by stokerd on Apr 13, 2017 16:59:52 GMT
I run almost the exact same Arkadius list (but I run a Battle Boar instead of the Gorax) and it works really well. However, when I know I am facing major ARM (like Khador 'jack spam), I always find myself reaching for Carver: Lord Carver - Thornfall Alliance - War Hog x4 - Road Hog x2 - Battle Boar Maximus The whole group is ARM20/21, allowing them to weather any shooting, and with Mobility, they aren't that far behind the Arkadius list. Heck, with all of the terrain my group plays with, the Pathfinder actually puts them ahead of the Arkadius list at times. One turn of running 14" (or close to) generally sets them up for their 10" charge the next turn, and Overtake plus an additional die means they wreck anything - Infantry, Warjacks/Warbeasts, or Colossals. While it may only be on Feat turn, you can easily clear out anything that can retaliate or defeat ARM21, and then it's just a matter of cleaning up. Mobility still puts them a loooooong way behind Arkadius's battlegroup. If Arkadius has to travel through nothing but rough terrain the entire way, he only threats 2" less than Carver does. Unless you're playing on a battlefield that is 100% rough terrain though, it's pretty easy to avoid that. The average amount of movement to get a Heavy Warbeast through 3" of rough terrain (ruins, rubble, forest, whatever) is 10" (6" for the front of the base + 4" to get the 50mm base out of the terrain), and that's if he starts in B2B contact with the terrain. That's the running speed of a War Hog. So just to move through a small amount of terrain puts Arkadius behind by 9". He needs his Feat just to catch up. My group generally plays slightly terrain heavy with no real open spaces in the middle - 4-6 pieces of smallish terrain (roughly 3x5) and 1-2 pieces of larger terrain (roughly 6x8). And while easy to avoid (possibly), sometimes the only real option is to go through the terrain. Please don't misunderstand - I love my Arkadius list. I do really well with it. However, when it comes to major ARM spam, I much prefer Lord Carver over Arkadius, as I believe he can handle large multiples (more than 3) of high ARM models better. And while Arkadius's Feat can greatly speed up the army, lately I've been considering holding it back to actually use the attack from the Frenzy.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on Apr 13, 2017 22:12:22 GMT
\The average amount of movement to get a Heavy Warbeast through 3" of rough terrain (ruins, rubble, forest, whatever) is 10" (6" for the front of the base + 4" to get the 50mm base out of the terrain), and that's if he starts in B2B contact with the terrain. That's the running speed of a War Hog. You're looking at it very strangely. If you play on a battlefield made entirely out of rough terrain, Arkadius's War Hogs threaten 9" (two 4" charges, and 1" melee). Carver's War Hogs threaten 11". So that's a 2" difference if things are stacked completely in Carver's favour. If the battlefield is made entirely out of forest, so no LOS, then Arkadius threatens 6.5" (a 3" charge at a sacrificial model, a 2.5" walk because the target is just over 3" away, a 1" melee). Carver's threaten 8" (a 7" walk and 1" melee), so 1.5" in Carver's favour. If the battlefield is not made entirely out of either of these terrain types then it swings pretty rapidly in Arkadius's favour.
|
|
|
Post by stokerd on Apr 13, 2017 23:28:51 GMT
That's probably because I don't think of it in terms of threat ranges.
Threat ranges assume an empty board with straight lines between opposing pieces. It also assumes a complete lack of positioning on your opponent's side. What if he is hiding behind an obstacle? Unless you have pathfinder, there is no charging over an obstacle. That means your 17" threat range is meaningless, while my 11" threat may be able to apply damage (depending on if I can land on the other side of the wall).
If your opponent is sitting 11", on the other side of 3" of rubble, a War Hog under both 'casters has the same threat range. This is because of the 5" stolen by the rough terrain.
Or someone puts up Inhospitable Ground. That creates a 12-14" bubble of rough terrain.
My point, though, isn't that Carver always out-threatens Arkadius - he doesn't. It is simply that there are times, more frequently than you might imagine, that Carver does out-threaten Arkadius because Mobility gives Pathfinder as well as the +2 SPD.
Please understand, I'm not saying Arkadius is bad, or that he's slow, or anything else. I'm simply pointing out that Carver may be a better solution, depending on what you expect your opponent to bring.
|
|
|
Post by Korianneder on Apr 14, 2017 4:21:42 GMT
That's probably because I don't think of it in terms of threat ranges. Threat ranges assume an empty board with straight lines between opposing pieces. It also assumes a complete lack of positioning on your opponent's side. What if he is hiding behind an obstacle? Unless you have pathfinder, there is no charging over an obstacle. That means your 17" threat range is meaningless, while my 11" threat may be able to apply damage (depending on if I can land on the other side of the wall). If your opponent is sitting 11", on the other side of 3" of rubble, a War Hog under both 'casters has the same threat range. This is because of the 5" stolen by the rough terrain. Or someone puts up Inhospitable Ground. That creates a 12-14" bubble of rough terrain. My point, though, isn't that Carver always out-threatens Arkadius - he doesn't. It is simply that there are times, more frequently than you might imagine, that Carver does out-threaten Arkadius because Mobility gives Pathfinder as well as the +2 SPD. Please understand, I'm not saying Arkadius is bad, or that he's slow, or anything else. I'm simply pointing out that Carver may be a better solution, depending on what you expect your opponent to bring. There's a trade off though. The cases where Carver has a better threat range - mainly when there's a wall in the way or you're playing against Irusk1 since I believe he's the only caster in the game with inhospitable ground now - he isn't much better than Arkadius. But the cases where Arkadius is better he's much better than Carver is. Also, Carver isn't that good against lots of heavy targets. He's much better at taking out a single massive target because he only gets one turn of really good armor cracking with his feat. Outside of feat turn he has less armor cracking then every farrow warlock except for Sturm & Drang. Arkadius can threaten armor all game long.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on Apr 14, 2017 5:38:02 GMT
That's probably because I don't think of it in terms of threat ranges. Threat ranges assume an empty board with straight lines between opposing pieces. ...my post included the threat ranges of each Warlock on a board made completely out of forest. Empty boards may be how you calculate threat ranges, but it's certainly not what I'm doing. It also assumes a complete lack of positioning on your opponent's side. What if he is hiding behind an obstacle? Unless you have pathfinder, there is no charging over an obstacle. That means your 17" threat range is meaningless, while my 11" threat may be able to apply damage (depending on if I can land on the other side of the wall). Your 17" threat range becomes 6" from your side of the wall. That means you threaten as far or further than Carver's unless your War Hog is standing less than 5" from your side of the wall. Honestly, my opponent hiding behind a wall has less of an impact than me hiding behind a wall, which is a risk-reward evaluation that I make when I use the wall. A wall on my opponent's side of the board isn't much of a concern (unless they completely deny landing spots on the other side while not standing close enough to attack over the wall, but Carver can't deal with that any better If your opponent is sitting 11", on the other side of 3" of rubble, a War Hog under both 'casters has the same threat range. This is because of the 5" stolen by the rough terrain. Well, no, Arkadius actually threats 1" further in that scenario. You're not applying Arakdius's melee range, and you are applying Carver's. So make that 4" of rubble, unless Arkadius is able to Frenzy at an angle that allows him to circumvent the terrain. Which when you have 17" of movement is a pretty large caveat usually dependent on your own positioning as much as your opponent's. Or someone puts up Inhospitable Ground. That creates a 12-14" bubble of rough terrain. Ok, you're right, maybe Carver is the better drop into Irusk1. Especially since I like Carver to be my anti-infantry drop, and Irusk1 is pretty infantry focussed. Seikishi is correct. Inhospitable Ground exists nowhere else. My point, though, isn't that Carver always out-threatens Arkadius - he doesn't. It is simply that there are times, more frequently than you might imagine, that Carver does out-threaten Arkadius because Mobility gives Pathfinder as well as the +2 SPD. Please understand, I'm not saying Arkadius is bad, or that he's slow, or anything else. I'm simply pointing out that Carver may be a better solution, depending on what you expect your opponent to bring. I promise you, I'm not misunderstanding. I do know what your argument is. I just disagree with it, specifically the "more frequently than you might imagine" part. I've played Arkadius on a board where the only terrain was 9 linear obstacles, for example. The reason I originally pointed out that Arkadius was only 2" behind Carver in the absolute worst-case scenario (a board of 100% rough terrain) was to demonstrate that if the situation is even a little bit better than worst case scenario then Arkadius is going to be better. But I will concede the point that I should drop Carver into Irusk1.
|
|
|
Post by stokerd on Apr 14, 2017 6:45:05 GMT
I had a big long post, but it's not worth belaboring.
First, if you are cycling Forced Evolution, as earlier pointed out, you are within 9" of the enemy's army (the max threat range of a War Hog without any way to speed up). With the amount of shooting that I typically face, this is suicide. And I know, because I've done it. And been sniped. Having Arkadius 9" from the front lines is asking for death. So no, you won't get to cycle Forced Evolution, and thus your highest P+S is 20 (Aggression Dial and Primal).
Second, if you are thinking of putting up Crippling Grasp, it's the same issue. 8" from the enemy means they ignore all of your other stuff and blow up Arkadius.
Third, the only way Arkadius out-threats Carver is on his Feat turn, due to the extra Frenzy move. At ANY other point, Carver has a faster battlegroup - with both Pathfinder and +2SPD. So you had better go for the big kill and pray you get it, because if you miss you are going to be leaving a significant portion of your army hanging out to dry.
"Also, Carver isn't that good against lots of heavy targets." - Seikishi - this is bonkers to me. A single War Hog can solo a Khador heavy on Feat turn under Carver. I know, because I've done it, multiple times, as Khador is played often in my meta. My Carver list runs 3-4 War Hogs, that kills 3-4 Khador heavies - all of which I will get the Alpha strike on. Under Arkadius, I can get one (due to Forced Evolution), two if I want to have Arkadius close to any retaliation. And with all of the WGRC + Rockets running around Khador now, you better believe retaliation is coming.
In my games, Carver's battlegroup can easily clear out any heavies opposite them, and then be sitting at ARM21 with no credible threats on the table. That forces them to go for assassination, which should be difficult as I know it is their only option.
The speed outside of Feat turn (read any turn I want to have it) of Carver allows for much better scenario pressure, as does the ARM21 heavies.
I'm not dissing on Dr. Arkadius - really, I'm not. I love him and run him regularly. I just think you are giving more credence to the 17-19" threats (and it's 29" if you are going for an assassination with two souped up Road Hogs) that Arkadius brings for one turn than is necessary. He's good for one turn, and can make (realistically) one War Hog better.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on Apr 14, 2017 7:09:55 GMT
I had a big long post, but it's not worth belaboring. First, if you are cycling Forced Evolution, as earlier pointed out, you are within 9" of the enemy's army (the max threat range of a War Hog without any way to speed up). With the amount of shooting that I typically face, this is suicide. And I know, because I've done it. And been sniped. Having Arkadius 9" from the front lines is asking for death. So no, you won't get to cycle Forced Evolution, and thus your highest P+S is 20 (Aggression Dial and Primal). Arkadius isn't 9" from the front lines in this scenario. I agree that cycling Forced Evolution is odd, but it requires your enemy to be within 9" of your War Hogs, not Arkadius. If they do get that close then the War Hog can go in, kill the target, then Arkadius can activate, cycle Forced Evolution, Feat, and back-up. That can work even with him being around 20" from the enemy (he could be more than that, honestly, but 20" is pushing the edges of his Targ-augmented Control Area so that the newly buffed Warbeast can still be forced). That scenario isn't particularly likely, of course, but when you threaten that far and you have some good guns in your list then you'd be surprised at how often people feel forced to close the distance and make it easy for you. Second, if you are thinking of putting up Crippling Grasp, it's the same issue. 8" from the enemy means they ignore all of your other stuff and blow up Arkadius. Reposition makes that 11", which means your opponent has to have a 13" threat range (due to losing the 2 Speed) on the Crippling Grasp target if they want to get Arkadius. That's pretty safe. Plus you can have Guardian Warbeast making that a tougher prospect. And all that assumes you don't then kill the Crippling Grasp'd target, meaning that Arkadius is 11" plus however far the gap is between the Crippling Grasp'd target and the next living model is. And all of that assumes you're like me and you don't bother with Bone Grinders, Bone Grinders make it better. You have to have a faster army than, say, Carver to be able to realistically threaten Arkadius post-Crippling Grasp Or a lot of guns with good accuracy, but part of being good with squishy Warlocks is target prioritisation and knowing when you can commit. Third, the only way Arkadius out-threats Carver is on his Feat turn, due to the extra Frenzy move. At ANY other point, Carver has a faster battlegroup - with both Pathfinder and +2SPD. So you had better go for the big kill and pray you get it, because if you miss you are going to be leaving a significant portion of your army hanging out to dry. Yeah, that's exactly how an alpha striking Warlock like Arkadius works. The good news is that the alpha strike is when you most need that speed buff. Carver's late-game speed is an asset, just as Arkadius's late-game hitting power is an asset. The main difference is that, in my experience, models are more likely to be close together late-game than they are to be easy to kill. And the big advantage to being that fast is that you dictate the terms of engagement and the location at which that late game fight takes place. "Also, Carver isn't that good against lots of heavy targets." - Seikishi - this is bonkers to me. A single War Hog can solo a Khador heavy on Feat turn under Carver. I know, because I've done it, multiple times, as Khador is played often in my meta. My Carver list runs 3-4 War Hogs, that kills 3-4 Khador heavies - all of which I will get the Alpha strike on. Under Arkadius, I can get one (due to Forced Evolution), two if I want to have Arkadius close to any retaliation. And with all of the WGRC + Rockets running around Khador now, you better believe retaliation is coming. What Seikishi is describing is a scenario in which your opponent commits their army in waves. I.e. They give you some, but not all, of their Khador heavies in one turn. So you kill them with your War Hogs and your Feat. Then you lose some War Hogs and have to kill the remaining heavies without Carver's Feat. Just as Carver has an easier time contesting zones late-game because his army is faster, Arkadius has an easier time removing those remaining heavies because Carver is capping out at P+S 20. Arkadius can effectively swing a P+S 24. In my games, Carver's battlegroup can easily clear out any heavies opposite them, and then be sitting at ARM21 with no credible threats on the table. That forces them to go for assassination, which should be difficult as I know it is their only option. Yeah, that's basically how I play with Carver too. But I do need to be able to pressure my opponent into committing the vast bulk of their heavy hitters first, to be able to catch them all in one fell swoop. That often means sacrificing models in piece trades to set up that finale. Arkadius, meanwhile, has the double advantage of both being able to go, "Actually, I can move fast enough to reach that second wave as well as the first wave", and has the hitting power to ensure that he doesn't need to push so far forward if he doesn't want to. It's ok if half the enemy heavies survive because you haven't lost your damage buffs and can deal with them next turn. The speed outside of Feat turn (read any turn I want to have it) of Carver allows for much better scenario pressure, as does the ARM21 heavies. I'm not dissing on Dr. Arkadius - really, I'm not. I love him and run him regularly. I just think you are giving more credence to the 17-19" threats (and it's 29" if you are going for an assassination with two souped up Road Hogs) that Arkadius brings for one turn than is necessary. He's good for one turn, and can make (realistically) one War Hog better. I don't think it's possible to give more credence to threat ranges like that. They hand you control of the game. They dictate where the engagement happens. Arkadius's slowest elements can be 5" from the largest scenario zone and be threatening a model toeing the opposite side. That puts your opponent under immense pressure. That speed can win you games on its own.
|
|