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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 20, 2018 8:29:46 GMT
A side question to your overall analysis: Is there any way to look at the total number of Khador players in these tournaments? PGSwiss has the option to upload results. Of course that's mostly small local tournaments, you can't see the list pair, and only for TOs that choose to use the application as well as actually upload the standings, but I guess it's something? Lock & Load is on there though. There was a single Khador in the Iron Gauntlet, another in Champions, that dropped, and 5 in the Masters, 3 of which dropped. if khador had the choice to bring out of theme models/units into themes instead of mercs (as in, having a choice on picking a merc unit for a theme or an out of theme unit for a theme) would help bring back the feel of combined arms at least. Judging from the current CID, not even Retribution, the true (according to them) combined arms faction is getting anything like this. Truly, the argument could be made for nearly any faction: - Cryx normally has some Thralls in any force, worst case only to be able to recycle them
- Cygnar usually has some sort of support unit, like Gunmages
- Skorne is known for being a martial faction and usually has a bit of everything
- etc.
The current reality is that themes are supposed to be detachments of a full army. At the scale of an actual war, we would be using all sorts of models together, but at the skirmish scale that we play at, the vast majority of the selection will be from that single detachment (you could view your 2 list pairing as a full army and you choose which detachment to send forward)
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Post by cageyj0nny on Jul 20, 2018 9:26:17 GMT
I also think this is a regional thing. So I think we can all agree that the DGI list is not all encompassing and mainly speaks the the north american meta.
Here in the UK we seem to have a different perspective of khador, for example Jim Gradwell came second at Bonescon with khador this year, he also come 4th at the welsh masters. John Clarke came second at our Invitational tournament and I am part of a triples team that won the PP UK triples event last year although I know people don like to count team events.
A lot of guys seem to get hung up on the whole magical weapons thing but I dont really see it as an issue, there are plenty of options in Khador, we have a theme full of them for example.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 20, 2018 10:21:08 GMT
Oh, the 'ignoring team tournaments' thing is all on me; I just found it too difficult to analyse them fairly.
Magical weapons I feel are needed, but not to the extent that some think. Just shifting a Destroyer on to a Forge Seer seems to have done the trick for me. I think the fact that 5 out of 6 scenarios have an Objective, compared to just 3 in 2017, also helps.
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Post by cageyj0nny on Jul 20, 2018 11:42:26 GMT
Oh, the 'ignoring team tournaments' thing is all on me; I just found it too difficult to analyse them fairly. Magical weapons I feel are needed, but not to the extent that some think. Just shifting a Destroyer on to a Forge Seer seems to have done the trick for me. I think the fact that 5 out of 6 scenarios have an Objective, compared to just 3 in 2017, also helps. 100%. I run karchev in JAW's at the moment with 2 forge seers, one with a destroyer and one with a marauder. It's designed as a cryx / cygnar / grymkin drop and works pretty well.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 20, 2018 12:18:12 GMT
Interesting. I can see it into Grymkin and Cygnar, but I'd imagine the Nightmare Empire to be a nightmare matchup! What sort of Cryx lists have you been playing it into?
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Post by cageyj0nny on Jul 20, 2018 13:16:29 GMT
Dark host / scourge of the broken coast / dark industries (slayer spam)
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Post by Mr.Human on Jul 20, 2018 14:36:34 GMT
This is nothing new to anyone who play Khador since mk2 (for a very very brief Karchev & friends run that is). Khador can't have nice things Edit:Oh, and PP is still "watching the Slayer spam closely"...
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Post by Netherby on Jul 21, 2018 5:14:17 GMT
There are really only a couple of things we can get out of the data:
1) Cryx is in a really good place.
2) There probably weren't any top tier players repping Khador at those events.
-=-
Sure, we can write lists that don't suck into Cryx. But the canny Cryx player will bring a pairing that simply asks too many different questions for our list to answer. At best this becomes a list chicken, but our other list probably isn't a Cryx drop since we have a whole bunch of other stuff to worry about. So the general scenario becomes: We have one list that will play okay into one of their lists and our other list probably isn't wonderful into either. They simply drop the list that our Cryx drop isn't good into.
I strongly believe that while Cryx is in its current state Khador is going to have trouble placing in solo tournaments. There are some small changes that could be made to go most of the way to fixing this, but the time between our days in the CID sun means we may be suck here for some time to come.
As to Khador being the easy win faction at the start of Mk3 and players not adapting to the shifting meta, that is just plain rubbish. Khador seemed super strong at the start because many people hadn't adapted to Power Up existing and were still playing like it was Mk2. Themes dropped and Khador got some pretty short straws, players adapted as best they could. Cryx continued to get stronger, Khador adapted their lists to have some hope of playing into Ghost Fleet. Cryx got even stronger with the addition of Slayer spam and Black Ogrun, Khador continues to try and adapt but is finding they have simply run out of tools.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 21, 2018 12:07:56 GMT
'top tier' players tend to faction hop to whatever is strongest
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Post by auraco on Jul 21, 2018 12:11:37 GMT
'top tier' players tend to faction hop to whatever is strongest It really depends on the player though, JVM has been legioning his way to the top of a lot of tournament even when legion was considered in a bad spot. He's not the only one.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 21, 2018 12:51:42 GMT
Yeah, I remember reading Legion articles by him back in Mk2. He's certainly stayed the course. Chris Dancocks seems to have been Trollblood long before they were deemed good, too.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 21, 2018 12:57:37 GMT
'top tier' players tend to faction hop to whatever is strongest I completely disagree with that. Some people that THINK they are top tier faction hop to whatever appears to be the strongest. But the ACTUAL top tier players generally stick with the stuff they like. If they change it's generally because they are bored or looking for a new challenge.
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Jul 23, 2018 16:29:35 GMT
Listened to part of a podcast this morning, and they briefly touched upon Khador. Their assessment was that Khador players have not had to think hard when building lists since the start of Mk3, they could just run tons of warjacks or WG rocket spam and call it a day. But now that the meta has changed, Khador players need to adapt and find new answers and try new lists, and that the current perceived malcontent is a result of people trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Do you think that is a fair assessment? or completely wrong? The meta has been changing over a long time, and I think it os a long time since Rocket spam and tons of warjacks was all that good.
Was it ever that good? It may have been good sometimes, but was it so good that it is likely that it caused Khador players to stop developing? Was ther other factions who also had so good easy lists that they stopped developing, or was Khador simply much better than all the rest? Or is there other reasons to assume that Khador, of all factions was the one in which the players stopped adapting?
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