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Kaya1
Apr 12, 2017 4:09:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by phantomsig on Apr 12, 2017 4:09:44 GMT
So I played my first two circle games yesterday (both 50 points with kaya1) and had a fantastic time (coming from convergence, even circle was simple). But the interweb chatter is she isn't that good at 75 points. Are there viable lists? Why is she weak at 75 points? What are her weaknesses?
To go with her hit and run shenanigans, I was thinking tharn wolf riders? Would occulation make them a hassle for people?
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Kaya1
Apr 12, 2017 9:17:02 GMT
Post by kineath on Apr 12, 2017 9:17:02 GMT
Although I love Kaya (any form), I'd say Kaya1 is the weakest of them all. Possibly even one of our "weakest" casters. Simply because her abilities do not support a lot of models.
* Stats: Her melee ability can be surprising. but relies on critical knockdown for higher def models. which make it unreliable. Her defensive stats aren't that good. Def 16 is nice, but arm and hitpoints make her easy to kill. And she is often low on fury or without fury for transfers.
*Spells: Occultation is a good spell, but because Kaya is kinda squishy she will most likely cast it on herself. It can help keeping one unit or beast safe from range. But its not enough against more dedicated shooting. Soothing song is nice. especially when Kaya has a bigger battlegroup, which I'm not so sure she wants. Spirit fang is an ok offensive spell, but her low FUR stat makes it a cost 3/4 spell. And in my opinion Kaya has better uses for her fury. Spirit Door. Her signature spell, which is good. But in my opinion a bit bland. Pulling back 2 beasts each turn max makes me think she doesn't want a very big battlegroup. Also she has no damage buff other then Primal. Primal and Spirit door don't really combine well. And ofcourse Pulling beasts back gives scenario space to the enemy.
Her Packhunter ability is very nice. It does put her further up the table with "poor" defensive stats
Lastly her feat: It gives a lot of options! It can be used for assassination, or attrition because she can pull up to 4 beasts back. But its not as good as many of our other feats.
All in all I'd say she supports a couple of models. And as such her presence on the battlefield is somewhat limited.
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Kaya1
Apr 12, 2017 12:33:44 GMT
Post by bakemono on Apr 12, 2017 12:33:44 GMT
Kaya-1 could be a well-balanced, competitive Warlock with just a few tweaks. Don't hold your breath. She is exceptionally powerful in Battlebox games, or any low point game (and I mean low points). Her ability to Yo-Yo heavy hitters gives her powerful board control and attrition. In lower point games, she is less vulnerable to withering, sustained shooting. I've never lost a low points game with her. That isn't an idle boast. She is borderline broken in those low points games. However, she has a break point where she goes from potent to impotent, hero to zero. If she has innate Stealth on herself, freeing her Occultation for other targets, she would have some durability going beyond low model count opposition. The key problem you face with Kaya-1 is that her abilities don't work well. To get the benefit of her boosting MAT you have to have her essentially in Assassination range. Do you see the problem? Her single biggest advantage, buff for her list requires her to be a sitting duck.
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Kaya1
Apr 12, 2017 13:28:24 GMT
Post by streetpizza on Apr 12, 2017 13:28:24 GMT
I've always found Kaya1 to be a 7 fury caster stuck on a 6 fury caster's card.
The reasons for this are as follows: - she's too squishy and low pow to compare with the melee abilities / survivability of most fury 6 casters - her game plan is primarily about spell slinging but she always seems to be 1 fury shy of doing what she wants / needs to in a turn - her spell card feels like its one spell short of being excellent (infantry or beast damage buff spell anybody?) - her control range is just slightly to small to allow her to run a decent sized battle group and stay close enough to them while being safe - her game plan seems centered around beasts but she doesn't have enough fury to really make it work - she has an awesome nuke spell but isn't accurate enough to deliver it with any reliability - her feat is really lackluster for only 6 fury but wouldn't actually be that bad at 7 fury (other casters get much more than 7 fury worth of work out their feats, Vayle2, Kreoss3 ect.)
So yeah bump her to fury 7 (please do this for all Kayas) and give her an extra spell that actually compliments her play style and you're good to go. Her kit is actually solid she just needs to be able to execute with it.
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Kaya1
Apr 12, 2017 21:54:08 GMT
Post by Dev Null on Apr 12, 2017 21:54:08 GMT
I think Kaya1 gets a big bump on paper from Loki (who doesn't? But still...) I don't get to play much anymore, so I haven't tried it yet.
Shield Guard and the possibility of Elusive helps her defensively. Hook-pulls means you can make a two-pronged alpha; charge one enemy and have Kaya port the chargers back, while the hookwolf drags another in close that you don't need to teleport away from.
I have always liked to play her with a big battlegroup, to double-down on the work I get out of Soothing Song and the MAT buff, though that becomes a niche for Kaya3 now too. One of the biggest problems that Kaya1 has always had is exactly that; it's not that she sucks, it's just that others do the same things slightly better.
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Kaya1
Apr 13, 2017 11:41:04 GMT
Post by sirk on Apr 13, 2017 11:41:04 GMT
Kaya1 is has a beautiful design idea with a poorly balanced outcome. My advice would be to lower Spirit Door to 2 fury, give her stealth (or even just prowl) and replace Occulutation (that she ALWAYS needs to cast on self!) with some other spell. As she is, just play her on the lower point games.
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Kaya1
Apr 15, 2017 10:39:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by phantomsig on Apr 15, 2017 10:39:27 GMT
Thanks everybody!
It's a super shame as spirit door is a ton of fun to play with. But alas life will go on.
kaya3 looks fun!
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Kaya1
Apr 15, 2017 20:29:48 GMT
Post by catulle on Apr 15, 2017 20:29:48 GMT
I think she's fascinating in low points and two-caster games, but that's about it. Aside from being quite possibly the only caster that got worse looking in the resculpt.
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Kaya1
May 5, 2017 1:46:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Dave G on May 5, 2017 1:46:26 GMT
I played her in maybe 10s MK 3 75 pt games. I played her into all kinds of stuff and mostly lost. To hit and run, I gave up a lot of scenario pressure and our zone holding options remain lackluster. Or I lost on attrtion because 19 pt wolves do not enough to the 6-10 jacks that were running at me.
The normal mk2 problems are still there and magnified. -Spirit fang is unreliable even double boosted to 4 fury against many of the things you want and the spd debuff isn't enough some fraction of the time beside. -Assulting Pureboods miss 1/2 the time against all of the important solos/caster/stuff you want to kill.
But I'm pretty down on Circle and the game in general with Mark III, so maybe someone with more skill and patience can get it done. Or maybe SR 2017 will make things better. Or maybe someone that already owns more than 1 punch goat can get it to go.
I will say that MK III sentry stones help keep her alive.
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Kaya1
May 7, 2017 16:05:53 GMT
Post by bakemono on May 7, 2017 16:05:53 GMT
I played her in maybe 10s MK 3 75 pt games. I played her into all kinds of stuff and mostly lost. To hit and run, I gave up a lot of scenario pressure and our zone holding options remain lackluster. Or I lost on attrtion because 19 pt wolves do not enough to the 6-10 jacks that were running at me. The normal mk2 problems are still there and magnified. -Spirit fang is unreliable even double boosted to 4 fury against many of the things you want and the spd debuff isn't enough some fraction of the time beside. -Assulting Pureboods miss 1/2 the time against all of the important solos/caster/stuff you want to kill. But I'm pretty down on Circle and the game in general with Mark III, so maybe someone with more skill and patience can get it done. Or maybe SR 2017 will make things better. Or maybe someone that already owns more than 1 punch goat can get it to go. I will say that MK III sentry stones help keep her alive. Can you give me the list you are using and the basic tactics? I've had very different results, so I'm wondering if it is an approach or style thing. I don't use points on Sentry Stones at all.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Kaya1
May 8, 2017 8:51:39 GMT
Post by unded on May 8, 2017 8:51:39 GMT
My advice is to take another look at Kaya1 once SR2017 is finalised.
He biggest problem has always been that the hit-and-run tactics she favours leaves scenario elements uncontested, which has her lose on scenario hard.
Considering that it looks like SR2017 is almost dead to scenario play, I think Kaya1's attrition-based playstyle is going to come back in a big way.
-und_ed
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tang
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 1
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Kaya1
May 9, 2017 14:03:59 GMT
Post by tang on May 9, 2017 14:03:59 GMT
Has anyone tried to run her with the Fulcrum. Giving that thing Stealth could be interesting.
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Kaya1
Jul 26, 2017 13:57:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by Dave G on Jul 26, 2017 13:57:02 GMT
@bokemono
Sadly I can't really now, it's been too long since those games and I basically stopped playing/reading for a few months to shake off the salt/extact from the salt mine.
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Kaya1
Jul 26, 2017 16:21:13 GMT
Post by jisidro on Jul 26, 2017 16:21:13 GMT
She is also stuck on the living beast side losing out on the guys who could actually geomancy a great nuke... same for Kaya2.
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Kaya1
Jul 27, 2017 8:22:05 GMT
Post by Forsaken on Jul 27, 2017 8:22:05 GMT
My feeling is that at lower points you want to play her one way (yo-yo beasts) and at higher points you need to forget that strategy and go another direction (almost never use spirit door). I'm not sure what direction that is though. She still gives an awesome buff to living warbeasts and has our highest free wb points as well as one of the beast fury management spells. Ironically, I feel like she wants to not lean entirely on living beasts though. Try having a frontline of woldwyrd's, fulcrum and maybe ranged infantry that require no support from her and then a second line of cheap living beasts for a second, counterpunch line when the front line is engaged. That's the best I can come up with.
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