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Post by mcdermott on Jul 31, 2018 18:07:37 GMT
What next turn...kill their caster and the fight is over.
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Post by forthehorde on Jul 31, 2018 19:32:59 GMT
What next turn...kill their caster and the fight is over. Assuming you can deliver the entire unit into clear line of site. With no fury/focus transfers you only have a 63% chance of assassinating. One focus or fury turns it into 46%. You're literally gambling the game on just above 50/50. Wiff a roll and ossysans gone. If a random aoe takes out 2 or more hunters it's pretty much impossible to complete the assassination.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 31, 2018 20:50:58 GMT
What line of sight...they have a feat that lets them ignore clouds forests and other models, thats the entire point. Ossy or Issyria's feat doesn't need LOS either and thats just 1 unit of a unit heavy theme, with a walking threat of 18" (20" to snake someone with the feat)
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Post by forthehorde on Jul 31, 2018 21:36:55 GMT
Any LOS blocking terrain stops them aside from forest. They also don't ignore cover or concealment. Cover drops the odds to 1% concealment drops it to 16%.
Yeah someone who's caster is standing out in the open might get a surprise... But that's nothing new.
Their threat range is irrelevant with Ossyan as it's him that needs to be within 14 inches. With Issyria it's easier and less risky but a much lower impact as well.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 31, 2018 21:46:21 GMT
Um, CRA....thats the entire point I've made.
CRA doesn't give a squirt of piss about cover or concealment, because you're shooting at +11-16 to hit, and pow 15+3d6 to pow 20+3d6 depending on what you need to kill the target.
The entire point of this discussion was that CRA probably won't make it live because of the ability of the unit to ignore the majority of screening tactics to shoot a warcaster dead due to their minifeat and the ranged attack damage boosts available to two of Rets best casters. "terrain exists" is a non argument, balancing on a thing that may or may not be available on the table while negating the most widely available methods of protecting against ranged attacks (not everyone gets sac pawn, or playable shield guards) is kind of poor design and even if it goes through its liable to end up right back in CID.
But lets go ahead and ignore the casterkill argument, thats just the most dramatic effect. Two units of MHSF with minifeat plus CRA can scalpel most of an armys support with ease. Before you could rely on the occasional miss, but with CRA thats not really an issue.
I simply don't think itl go live like that, and if they keep CRA, they're probably losing some other aspect of their kit thats not going to make people too happy.
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Post by forthehorde on Jul 31, 2018 22:19:38 GMT
I've Included cras in my previous examples. It's just not a viable assassination attempt.
You can CRA the entire unit at 16 rat and pow 20. You're still at 3% kill chance. And the more you mass the more that gets lost when they transfer or block. Your best odds are doubling up the units at rat 8 and pow 12 and that's where it comes out at 60%. Assuming they have no obstructing terrain to hide behind, no concealment, and no cover. And the opposing army brought no anti shooting tech.
Can they pick out a support solo from 18" away? Yeah. Why shouldn't 20 pts of units be able to take out 5?
Don't believe me, figure out the odds for yourself. The more you cra to hit against cover concealment, the less attacks you get, the less damage you do. You're literally trading 2d6 of damage for 1 rat and 1 pow.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 31, 2018 22:41:35 GMT
You're arguing theorymachine, im arguing from table experience.
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Post by snotling on Aug 1, 2018 13:16:16 GMT
My table experience also says the assa wont work. Especially against hordes. If you combine low, you will miss, if you combine hight, valkyries and fury will nullify the damage. Its also not that hard to take out a coulpe of grunts in the unit before they make their attempt.
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Post by onijet01 on Aug 2, 2018 2:40:22 GMT
My table experience also says the assa wont work. Especially against hordes. If you combine low, you will miss, if you combine hight, valkyries and fury will nullify the damage. Its also not that hard to take out a coulpe of grunts in the unit before they make their attempt. Well furst off a few questions. What hordes are you playing into? How many if them run Valkyrie outside minion themes? What is the average fury on warlocks in tourniment games? And second point if you are talking or trying to bring up hard counters due to a limited knowledge pool, it means you have lost the argument. If you are (play experiance) running for a phantom bolt assassination, you will be optimizing the list for that propose. Average army will incluse 3 units for stripping casters camps. One unit of infiltrators with eiryss 3 (snipped if under Ravyn1, or fortuned under ossyan1) that attack will strip focus/fury from the caster.) Id they sheild guard her then that expises their caster more to higher pow CRA. That is a bad spot to have a caster in period The remaining two units would be full strikeforce with ca and using their mini feat they will peel casters to death by plinking damage. Transfers and overfeilds mean little if your taking 2-3 damage an attack over 10 to 11 attacks. FYI hordes casters camp an average of 1 maybe 2 focus on non-hot turns and camp less or none on Hot turns. Warcasters also seem to averge 2 to 3 focus all game. Battlegroup heavy warcasters tend to run even less in order to optimize their output. Factions who casters run hot and tend to keep higher stavks on average are (in no order) Cryx Retribution Circle Minions Trolls Convergence Litterally due to the models and rules each has to optimize focus/fury efficency
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Post by forthehorde on Aug 2, 2018 4:24:57 GMT
You literally just listed 60 some pts worth of infantry for that assassination.
60 points of anything in any faction can down a caster.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Aug 2, 2018 4:44:00 GMT
Quick question to everyone posting here... did anyone actually CID playtest CRA driven assassination attempts?
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Post by snotling on Aug 2, 2018 6:46:16 GMT
My table experience also says the assa wont work. Especially against hordes. If you combine low, you will miss, if you combine hight, valkyries and fury will nullify the damage. Its also not that hard to take out a coulpe of grunts in the unit before they make their attempt. Well furst off a few questions. What hordes are you playing into? How many if them run Valkyrie outside minion themes? What is the average fury on warlocks in tourniment games? And second point if you are talking or trying to bring up hard counters due to a limited knowledge pool, it means you have lost the argument. If you are (play experiance) running for a phantom bolt assassination, you will be optimizing the list for that propose. Average army will incluse 3 units for stripping casters camps. One unit of infiltrators with eiryss 3 (snipped if under Ravyn1, or fortuned under ossyan1) that attack will strip focus/fury from the caster.) Id they sheild guard her then that expises their caster more to higher pow CRA. That is a bad spot to have a caster in period The remaining two units would be full strikeforce with ca and using their mini feat they will peel casters to death by plinking damage. Transfers and overfeilds mean little if your taking 2-3 damage an attack over 10 to 11 attacks. FYI hordes casters camp an average of 1 maybe 2 focus on non-hot turns and camp less or none on Hot turns. Warcasters also seem to averge 2 to 3 focus all game. Battlegroup heavy warcasters tend to run even less in order to optimize their output. Factions who casters run hot and tend to keep higher stavks on average are (in no order) Cryx Retribution Circle Minions Trolls Convergence Litterally due to the models and rules each has to optimize focus/fury efficency Im not playing against hordes, Im playing hordes. Legion to be exact. And I have no trouble to camp 3-4 vs strike force. I either have Ogrun, so no big fury build up. Or something with double throne, Also no big fury build up. Also: After the turn my beast run hot, there won't be three units of strike force on the table. Right now im liking saeryn1 with double throne a lot. Any single wound inf drops like flies and can't really retaliate. And she stands at a very comfortable def 18, banishing ward, blast immune, three shield guards, feat if I need to, more if I find a hill. Vs. Ret, im not afraid of any of the inf to be honest. Im way more cautious about some forges lists, because she lacks the damage to kill a lot of jacks.
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Post by snotling on Aug 2, 2018 6:56:29 GMT
Well furst off a few questions. What hordes are you playing into? How many if them run Valkyrie outside minion themes? What is the average fury on warlocks in tourniment games? And second point if you are talking or trying to bring up hard counters due to a limited knowledge pool, it means you have lost the argument. If you are (play experiance) running for a phantom bolt assassination, you will be optimizing the list for that propose. Average army will incluse 3 units for stripping casters camps. One unit of infiltrators with eiryss 3 (snipped if under Ravyn1, or fortuned under ossyan1) that attack will strip focus/fury from the caster.) Id they sheild guard her then that expises their caster more to higher pow CRA. That is a bad spot to have a caster in period The remaining two units would be full strikeforce with ca and using their mini feat they will peel casters to death by plinking damage. Transfers and overfeilds mean little if your taking 2-3 damage an attack over 10 to 11 attacks. FYI hordes casters camp an average of 1 maybe 2 focus on non-hot turns and camp less or none on Hot turns. Warcasters also seem to averge 2 to 3 focus all game. Battlegroup heavy warcasters tend to run even less in order to optimize their output. Factions who casters run hot and tend to keep higher stavks on average are (in no order) Cryx Retribution Circle Minions Trolls Convergence Litterally due to the models and rules each has to optimize focus/fury efficency Im not playing against hordes, Im playing hordes. Legion to be exact. And I have no trouble to camp 3-4 vs strike force. I either have Ogrun, so no big fury build up. Or something with double throne, Also no big fury build up. Also: After the turn my beast run hot, there won't be three units of strike force on the table. Right now im liking saeryn1 with double throne a lot. Any single wound inf drops like flies and can't really retaliate. And she stands at a very comfortable def 18, banishing ward, blast immune, three shield guards, feat if I need to, more if I find a hill. And thats not a hard counter made vs Ret, just a List that covers what Ogrun don't. And who runs Valks? In my area, almost every list that can. Because they are just that damn good. Vs. Ret, im not afraid of any of the inf to be honest. Im way more cautious about some forges lists, because she lacks the damage to kill a lot of jacks.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 2, 2018 19:04:54 GMT
HURR DURR BUT IT DOESN'T WORK AGAINST THE LISTS THAT PEOPLE WOULD TAKE THEIR SECONDARY LIST AGAINST ANYWAY!!!
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Post by forthehorde on Aug 2, 2018 20:06:14 GMT
HURR DURR BUT IT DOESN'T WORK AGAINST THE LISTS THAT PEOPLE WOULD TAKE THEIR SECONDARY LIST AGAINST ANYWAY!!! Calm down.
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