germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 14, 2018 16:23:37 GMT
How do we feel about these guys?
For those who don't know, CID has given them 'Granted: Magical Attacks [Ranged]', so now PoMmy jacks can suck it now with our POW 10 + 3d6 shots.
Anyway, dumb comment aside, given that they still cost 20 for the package, is this worth it? Will P has already shot down the idea of Prey (I like Prey, but don't think it quite fits MHSF, even if there is some fluff justification for it) and mentioned that Jack Hunter & Phantom Barrage aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
So, here's my idea: give the base unit Anatomical Precision [Jacks]. Because of Jack Hunter but being on a POW 10, they have an unreliable output. So they're often used to reach out and touch support models inappropriately, but often get blown off the board in retaliation, owing to paper thin ARM and the need to get pretty close to be able to target support elements. POW 10 with comparatively few damage amplifiers (one spell, one spell in CID and two feats) and apparent balance issues with Prey/Prey equivalents makes the MHSF a bit unreliable at dealing with jacks. IMO (operative words here)... IMO, ARM 18 already gives them headaches and anything above relies on dice spiking (10+ on 3d6 is just over 50% AFAIK). Math-hammer time: against basic heavy DEF/ARM stats (12/18), out of 11 shots, 3-4 will miss, and the remaining 7-8 will average 2.5 damage per hit. Is this 17.5-20 dmg enough for 20pts of unit? Hard to say, some say no, some say that's not all they can do. Needless to say, their stats overall can be deemed 'average' for their skirmish based function and for the longest time in Mk2 (I wasn't a Ravyn fan, fight me...!), I wondered what would be so wrong with RAT 7, but eh, there's a sufficient number who feel that they can't hit the broad side of a barn against any sort of terrain benefit, but this is something we've learned to deal with, or should do. Let's just say I got fixated with the Jack Hunter ability and found it so underwhelming that against some jacks, I personally feel they need something to make their hits actually worth rolling a successful hit for, even if it's just one damage. More so given how MHSF struggle against a few of the jack themes (Black Industries, charging's a thing, true, but I'm skeptical about how reliable this is, Destruction Initiative with all the bot shield guards, and Forges itself which can spread the damage, too, and Jaws of the Wolf, 'cos ARM 20 is a pain to break). Of course, these themes have different levels of neutralising or lowering the potential output of POW 10 3d6's... but auto-damage is rare enough in the game that I think this can help justify the cost of what is one of the most expensive units in Ret and gives purpose to having the ability of 'Jack Hunter'. Mind frazzled... making less sense... insert random Kae is Bae fanboy comment Backlash assassination, blah, blah, blah.
My thought was originally for AnPr [Constructs], but this makes it a bit much vs Convergence, almost irrespective of caster, but it would be nice to tell Bones to suck it... or at least try.
Go forth and criticise! Or air what you'd think would be a balanced change to them etc. etc. etc. I'm off for meds and bed...!
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 14, 2018 19:55:53 GMT
When facing them the best thing about them I have found is how much threat they can project in turns 1 and 2.
With AD and a 18" walking threat, if the Ret player goes first (with +1 from theme benefit), they can position so aggressively that nothing that moves off your deployment line cannot be shot.
And if they go second, if you advance more than 7" you are in their threat range.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 15, 2018 2:20:55 GMT
When facing them the best thing about them I have found is how much threat they can project in turns 1 and 2. With AD and a 18" walking threat, if the Ret player goes first (with +1 from theme benefit), they can position so aggressively that nothing that moves off your deployment line cannot be shot. And if they go second, if you advance more than 7" you are in their threat range. True, but how potent is that threat genuinely? POW 10's on RAT 6 with no simultaneous buff to hit and damage outside of feats leaves them struggling against, say, Trenchers, and sure, in the situation you describe, shots will be attempted, but how many will hit, and how many will damage (realistically... even with the expected dice spikes)? Different roles separate the Trenchers and MHSF, to be sure, and by design since the MHSF have different strengths, but those strengths are often, not so much irrelevant, but overstated. I can't say anything for other metas, but my previous one regarded MHSF with nothing more than utter disdain where the best they could do was take down a bunch of McThralls and do chip damage to light jacks. Maybe I don't play them well, but I was regularly put into a situation of use them conservatively, they get presented my opponent's beasts/heavy infantry, I play aggressively so I can take out their support, bye bye MHSF, don't have enough left to legitimately threaten much, or terrain crocks them so badly my opponent goes 'stick in cover, tank the shots, chance of death unlikely, I'll take the risk'. *shrug*
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Post by onijet01 on Jul 15, 2018 3:18:16 GMT
When facing them the best thing about them I have found is how much threat they can project in turns 1 and 2. With AD and a 18" walking threat, if the Ret player goes first (with +1 from theme benefit), they can position so aggressively that nothing that moves off your deployment line cannot be shot. And if they go second, if you advance more than 7" you are in their threat range. True, but how potent is that threat genuinely? POW 10's on RAT 6 with no simultaneous buff to hit and damage outside of feats leaves them struggling against, say, Trenchers, and sure, in the situation you describe, shots will be attempted, but how many will hit, and how many will damage (realistically... even with the expected dice spikes)? Different roles separate the Trenchers and MHSF, to be sure, and by design since the MHSF have different strengths, but those strengths are often, not so much irrelevant, but overstated. I can't say anything for other metas, but my previous one regarded MHSF with nothing more than utter disdain where the best they could do was take down a bunch of McThralls and do chip damage to light jacks. Maybe I don't play them well, but I was regularly put into a situation of use them conservatively, they get presented my opponent's beasts/heavy infantry, I play aggressively so I can take out their support, bye bye MHSF, don't have enough left to legitimately threaten much, or terrain crocks them so badly my opponent goes 'stick in cover, tank the shots, chance of death unlikely, I'll take the risk'. *shrug* You hit the nail on the head. To paraphrase maybe you do not play them properly. Your playstyle for them as summerized to my understanding is... 1. Agressive anti support models, with an emphasis on fighting a beast, and heavy filled meta. You have only ever applied chip damage to lights and struggle vs specilized infantry. The Strikeforce was warped in mkii due to their over agressive antiWarnoun tec, when combined with Ravyn. As a result a large base of mkiii players have a fundimental falure to understand the roll of these models today. It is a common problem that occurs in many factions dispite years having passed sense mkiii began. To combat this it is best to forget all you know about models and work from ZERO data. First point i will make is that the Strikeforce is best as a blessed weapon playform for both ranged and melee offense. The unit is to be played in partnership with other Melee centered forces as to capitalize on the close range of the Strikeforce gun. As such range 12 is a redzone weapon and one should avoid that maximum range unless you can kill your targets. The reason is that 12inches is the standard in the current meta for adequate melee threat range. Meaning playing agressively and shooting second line models guarantees a count offensive in a melee charge. An example would be try snipe with a single unit of strikeforce backed by a good melee unit. Say The new Infiltrators to take up the counter offensive. Running a def 14 unit to tie down an opponents charge is also a clearly beneficial stratagy if it can result in holding or taking away an opponents alpha. The jack hunter is correct at adding a 3rd die but is generally weak vs arm 20 models so why focus them onto a heavy. Our lights can and do produce more damage to heavy warnouns that the Strikeforce and shiuld be utilized in pairing with them. Souless Escorts also help to improve the unit by 3 ways (if you do not mind them be a attack target) by setti g a triangle formation you opponent .ay shoot at the escorts with aoe shots due to the attachments not having stealth. This allows you to position in a way to midigate damage to your forces by aoes using them as targets. (Players will shoot at them) Second is anti spell protection in negetive range. That buff again will decrease the threat to your unit as aoe or drift spells suddenly are not only shortened by 5 inches but their maximum drift is also reduced 2.5 inches. Third is with the idea stated above of using the excorts as anti charge lane chaff to allow you to keep fighting. And shooting. On the point of deployment if on turn 2 uou can aim at trenchers you are back to dice off 9 to hit and with blessed weapons your only ever at dice off 3 to wound. With a range of 12 you also out shoot the bastards by 2 inches. If your opponent hides behind smoke walls so you can not shoot its fine as you can position and buy time untill you can retaliate. Another large issue with Strikeforce is players over eagerness to use their minifeat to early in a game. Being hyper agressive its way to easy to trap yourself because you have the minifeat. Truth is it works best ether feat turns or the turn after your opponent feats to reswing the games momentum back into your favor.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 15, 2018 4:16:50 GMT
You hit the nail on the head. To paraphrase maybe you do not play them properly. To clarify, they typically form a cloud in roughly two lines of five, UA more or less in the middle of the rear line. Forward line eventually goes ahead to go support hunting, back line just shoots what they can. When I need to commit have they near a high priority target with sensible DEF/ARM (14/17 5 bxs absolute max), then mini-feat and go to town, debuffs/buffs if I can. Whether that's the 'right' way to play them, I haven't the faintest, I haven't encountered any Ret players who field them much in all of MkIII (not that much of an event goer, in all honesty) so have no real point of comparison, but such is my standard SOP based on whatever logic/common sense I can squeeze out of the peanut in my head...! Anyway, moving on... Maybe a bad area, nothing but Grymkin/Minions/Skorne/Hordes in general. Local Cryx, but I could rarely get games against him, which was a pity. Don't take this the wrong way, but none of this is really news to me. I ran a triumvirate list (max MHSF/MHI/CR&NH) in 20pt blocks for max free solos and shuffled them about, and the Hunters typically performed better, and Blessed was rarely of benefit. Blessed is good, don't get me wrong, but my issue with Blessed on a unit that has average stats is that DEF buffs won't go on something the MHSF can reliably hit, and ARM buffs won't go on something the MHSF can reliably damage. Maybe it's a difference in experience, but when there's a Soulless Escort, it makes little difference as far as shooting is concerned. If they don't have True/Eyeless Sight, AOE's will be dropped in, targeting whoever (I'll space them out to minimise casualties). Spell protection, definitely, but with Stealth (& few casters with True/Eyeless Sight have the spells or inclination to throw debuffs at them, and those who have offensive AOE nukes usually have channellers that they're almost always resigned to losing once used as channellers) I've found this to be rarely an issue. Not sure about the charge lane blocking thing... most of my mates are Trample happy hippies...! And I'm nowhere near good enough to deny landing spots, but that's on me. It's more the moment the Trenchers use any ability, trying to hit them is a pain, and 9's to hit when aiming is not especially great, plus I doubt any Cygnar player is going to let you aim at them...! Anyway, bad comparison is bad... Huh... I've never been inclined to mini-feat early, or often at all. Caster feat needs to attain an attritional swing, obviously. Mini-feat depends on a lot of factors, mostly terrain based, and I'll usually only mini-feat against a very small handful of models if they have Concealment, one if it has Cover, or a small unit if it's only LOS blocked, since it will be in little position to be debuffed and I will need to buff the MHSF as much as I can. Everything else will go to the Hunters. Ultimately, I just don't think this (in its entirety) is a good use for what is increasingly becoming a heavy investment of points...
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 15, 2018 11:47:13 GMT
*ponders base unit comparisons with Tharn Bloodtrackers* -_-
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 15, 2018 21:55:23 GMT
Its so exhausting listening to people complain about rat 6 as though it were kossite tier in a meta where everything's def has been flattened.
Rat 6 is solid 10 man ranged unit. Rat 7 is 4 to 6 man units at best.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 16, 2018 4:50:04 GMT
Am I complaining about RAT 6? Yes, I suppose I am... when I know I really should not and need not.
I don't have any bones to pick with RAT 6 as for a ranged unit, RAT 7 is exceedingly rare (Pagani listed every non-warnoun unit with RAT 7 and the list was VERY short... one of which was Cylena!). Rather, it's the combination of RAT 6 and POW 10 on 20pts. To break down, RAT 6 = fine. POW 10 = also fine, low end of average, but it's alright. RNG 12" = solid. Blessed = situational, but we'll take it. Jack Hunter = a bit skewy and leaves the initial impression of only being good against half the game, but we can make it work. Phantom Barrage = a bit underwhelming, but can be janky. AD = as befits their role. But given that by themselves (operative words here), they struggle to provide meaningful output unlike similar units with their points bracket (again, without support), are they worth 20pts?
My opinion is definitely coloured by my local opposition (and perhaps because I suck in general) and experience, and we all know the value of anecdotal evidence, but more than any other unit in Ret, the MHSF + CA feel depressingly lacking (in my hands). When I build a Shadows list, the first unit in there are Nyss Hunters, which is kinda dumb (of me? Maybe...).
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 16, 2018 6:22:17 GMT
The thing is, you're either going to get +2 inches, OR +1 pow or +2 pow and -2-4 inches.
Honestly I think they're a victim of being bad IN THE META, but not as a unit. Which sounds a bit weird but at the point that wads of infantry with a buff spell circle around again they're going to be a great tool in the box and it will suck to have changed them to something stronger against armor or to fill some other niche.
They really have a truly massive list of abilities that may not be clutch every game, but can be in enough to miss them when they're gone.
edit: another thing i didn't consider but is relevant is that at 20 points exactly, they're 1 free solo. Given the "free stuff" requirements in theme forces, thats more of a + than a negative.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 17, 2018 0:30:12 GMT
Am I complaining about RAT 6? Yes, I suppose I am... when I know I really should not and need not. I don't have any bones to pick with RAT 6 as for a ranged unit, RAT 7 is exceedingly rare (Pagani listed every non-warnoun unit with RAT 7 and the list was VERY short... one of which was Cylena!). Rather, it's the combination of RAT 6 and POW 10 on 20pts. To break down, RAT 6 = fine. POW 10 = also fine, low end of average, but it's alright. RNG 12" = solid. Blessed = situational, but we'll take it. Jack Hunter = a bit skewy and leaves the initial impression of only being good against half the game, but we can make it work. Phantom Barrage = a bit underwhelming, but can be janky. AD = as befits their role. But given that by themselves (operative words here), they struggle to provide meaningful output unlike similar units with their points bracket (again, without support), are they worth 20pts? My opinion is definitely coloured by my local opposition (and perhaps because I suck in general) and experience, and we all know the value of anecdotal evidence, but more than any other unit in Ret, the MHSF + CA feel depressingly lacking (in my hands). When I build a Shadows list, the first unit in there are Nyss Hunters, which is kinda dumb (of me? Maybe...). I could totally see a list with 1x each of nyss, mage hunters, and infiltrators.
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Post by groedius on Jul 17, 2018 0:43:22 GMT
So with week 2 of the CID these guys just picked up CRA. Does that put them in an better place ? So with 2 man cra they're rat 8 pow 12 with the extra dice against Jack's. Is 20 points worth 5 boosted pow 12s then ? If all 5 rolled 10s for damage you'd put 20 points into a arm 18 jack which is around normal for an heavy so any spike or ossyan feat would put them into the killing heavies range now.
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Post by elladan52 on Jul 17, 2018 0:59:02 GMT
So with week 2 of the CID these guys just picked up CRA. Does that put them in an better place ? So with 2 man cra they're rat 7 pow 12 with the extra dice against Jack's. Is 20 points worth 5 boosted pow 12s then ? If all 5 rolled 10s for damage you'd put 20 points into a arm 18 jack which is around normal for an heavy so any spike or ossyan feat would put them into the killing heavies range now. I believe you will find it is rat 8
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 17, 2018 2:16:49 GMT
Thing is about damaging jacks, on identical damage rolls, CRA makes little difference up to a point.
Averaging 10.5 on 3d6 against ARM 18 yields 25 damage in 10 shots or 22.5 damage in 5 2-man CRA's, the shortfall 'compensated' for by +2 to hit.
Anyway, as these numbers are not the be-all and end-all, my concern is more the 11-man CRA assassination possibilities... especially when Eiryss1 is on the board under Ravyn/Issyria, or just by themselves under Garryth... a POW 21 or POW 15/POW 16 without needing LoS for part or all of the unit and no transfers/damage mitigation may be a bit OP.
Of course, there's counterplay in Shield Guards/Sac Pawn/Sucker etc., but still...
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Post by groedius on Jul 17, 2018 8:12:08 GMT
Yeah I agree with the assassination threat it seems nice rat 8 is a good place to be at and pow 12 with the ghost shot so they don't even need to have Los. I was looking at ossyan for boosted pow 12s and fortune plus he can bring hypnos who also ignores Los on his gun can boost after and he can shadowbind which will help on anyone stacking defence, blesses stops spells but there's other things like walls and such and a 3 def swing is huge. Plus boosted pow 12s kill casters and there's a potential to have 10 shots.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 17, 2018 13:52:36 GMT
I could totally see a list with 1x each of nyss, mage hunters, and infiltrators. I've played it under Issyria, mostly, and it's pretty good and flexible as that load out would suggest. But mostly owing to how it trades, I'm a few tactics shy of getting it to work properly.
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