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Post by streetpizza on Jul 13, 2018 17:24:35 GMT
Do you believe other factions don't have great synergy opportunities with their battle engines? TEP with Orion, War Wagon with Gunny, Calandra or any Grim. And then you have the Storm Strider with Nemo3. I could list more, but my point is; just because a model can be used well by multiple casters/locks in different ways does not make it OP. In most of what it can do on the table I'm actually in agreement with you blue. The problem comes in the fact that more so than any other BE the Trident can apply consisten, medium power ranged force to a single target from very far across the table. Typically this means a warcaster or lock. That volume of concentrated ranged firepower from a single model will end games and be near impossible to hide from. Contrast against other shooting BE's TEP - slow and range 10 with no snipe available or possible Strider - can be body blocked and only puts out two direct shots with ancillary damage coming from leaps. Main shots can be shield guarded without overwhelming defensive capabilities. Can't repo back after and no possibility for a long range knockdown charge to ensure all shots hit. Fulcrum - Slow and no snipe available in faction. At best it only provides 3 shots which shouldn't overwhelm shield guards + focus and very little ancillary ranged buffs in circle. Animantarax - closest comparison to the trident and this one is also a problem. Look at what the animantarax can do with trample + shots under Rasheth and you'll have an idea of why the trident is bad for counter play options AFG - only two shots and its slow so terrain counter play is possible. Shield guards provide adequate defense for key models. Khador Chariots - operate similarly to trident but with far lower shot volume and less ranged support abilities than Ret. They are a great example of where the trident should land in field presence. All other BE's are more melee focused or don't have the shot volume to rate in comparison. So yeah, its about the assassination game that thing bring that really tips it over the edge.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 13, 2018 17:36:01 GMT
I mean you can compare it to a galleon who has a RNG 10 pow 15 with drag, 2d3 RNG 14 POW 13 boostable shots and access to snipe... do you see the galleon being brought in tons of merc lists and just killing every caster in its path? Nope.
edit: oh and with caine3 it can even have mage sight and be RAT 8 POW 18 and POW 16 shots plus enemy can have calamity on it making that even more of a swing with -2ARM and -2 DEF.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 13, 2018 17:46:06 GMT
I mean you can compare it to a galleon who has a RNG 10 pow 15 with drag, 2d3 RNG 14 POW 13 boostable shots and access to snipe... do you see the galleon being brought in tons of merc lists and just killing every caster in its path? Nope.
edit: oh and with caine3 it can even have mage sight and be RAT 8 POW 18 and POW 16 shots plus enemy can have calamity on it making that even more of a swing with -2ARM and -2 DEF.
Galleon can be body blocked, no dual attack, its slow and its 35+ something points. We can be as disengenous as you like here ... lets compare it to the storm raptor! Fast with flight and a gun but doesn't seem to be tearing up the scene ... can't imagine why. So the trident must be good to go!
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 13, 2018 17:53:35 GMT
I mean you can compare it to a galleon who has a RNG 10 pow 15 with drag, 2d3 RNG 14 POW 13 boostable shots and access to snipe... do you see the galleon being brought in tons of merc lists and just killing every caster in its path? Nope.
edit: oh and with caine3 it can even have mage sight and be RAT 8 POW 18 and POW 16 shots plus enemy can have calamity on it making that even more of a swing with -2ARM and -2 DEF.
Galleon can be body blocked, its slow and its 35+ something points. We can be as disengenous as you like here ... lets compare it to the storm raptor! Fast with flight and a gun but doesn't seem to be tearing up the scene ... can't imagine why. Let's be honest though. It's a good comparison because Galleon is similar ROF, has similar buffs available and how many times have you seen " omg i was assassinated by the galleon!" not enough for it to be a concern. People are over reacting to 3d3 shots. Having played the galleon enough I know people are thinking 9 shots... this thing is 4-6 POW 13 shots. If that's so scary then how come we never see a unit of rifleman? It's basically the same thing 15 points for speed 5 ( 7" move with thane) RNG 14 RAT 5 POW 10s that can be brought up to RAT7 POW 12s in CRA so to compare thats 5 RNG 14 RAT 7 POW 12s with all the same buffs available to them and you NEVER SEE THEM, EVER. If what you're saying about our factions casters, buffs are true and that we can assassinate casters left and right with guns then why arent we seeing it already? Because it's bullshit.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 13, 2018 18:07:11 GMT
39 pts vs 16. A 39 point model should bring as much offense as 2+ heavy warjacks. Speed 5 vs 7 without being able to ignore models or obstructions is huge. Demands 2 focus from caster to fully boost. Is one rat lower. No dual attack. I have in fact heard people Female Dog about the Galleon before but the conversation is always tempered by the fact that 39 point model was able to accomplish the feat. 16 points is a very different proposition.
Rifle men are self limited by trying to move a non flight unit and get line of sight for 10+ models through terrain and battle field conditions like any other shooting unit.
Consider the cylone in cygnar. 13 points for 2xd3 pow 12 at rng 12. People also aren't complaining about it because it has very predictable positioning. Spd 5 and no pathfinder mean a lot.
When you say the trident is fine you are in essence saying that for only 3pts more a model should have - an extra d3 shots - +2 spd, - an ability for +2 def, - slipstream, - caster independent boosts, - flight, - dual attack, - +1 arm - +1 pow on the guns - equal health - lose covering fire ?
That seem right to you? The cyclone is a very good choice with Caine3 as well but it still has very signficant limitations.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 13, 2018 18:15:57 GMT
39 pts vs 16. A 39 point model should bring as much offense as 2+ heavy warjacks. Speed 5 vs 7 without being able to ignore models or obstructions is huge. Demands 2 focus from caster to fully boost. Is one rat lower. No dual attack. I have in fact heard people Female Dog about the Galleon before but the conversation is always tempered by the fact that 39 point model was able to accomplish the feat. 16 points is a very different proposition. Consider the cylone in cygnar. 13 points for 2xd3 pow 12 at rng 12. People also aren't complaining about it because it has very predictable positioning. Spd 5 and no pathfinder mean a lot. When you say the trident is fine you are in essence saying that for only 3pts more a model should have - an extra d3 shots - +2 spd, - an ability for +2 def, - slipstream, - caster independent boosts, - flight, - dual attack, - +1 arm - +1 pow on the guns - equal health - lose covering fire ? That seem right to you? The cyclone is a very good choice with Caine3 as well but it still has very signficant limitations. While I don't think the cyclone is a great model the primary differences i can think of off the top of my head are:
It's in battlegroup so gets battlegroup buffs( like mage sight, caine3 feat, etc)
It has focus instead of power tokens and can be allocated a full 3 every turn and can also use that focus to perform power attacks and shake effects
It can aim and still get 3 focus the same turn
It is on a large base which is easier to position than a huge base
The Trident is in CID, it's not perfect but it's not as crazy/wild/OP is people are screaming.
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Post by etheric42 on Jul 13, 2018 18:17:30 GMT
6"/8" move even... and stealth ignoring... hrm, double riflemen, double SFA Kaelyssa list to get the stealth/no charge and drag it out a round? Ossyan feat+fortune just seems so good though, but they would need a melee unit.
I think everyone hates variable stuff because you see it roll max and get frustrated because because it wins a game on luck, and because you see it roll min and get frustrated because it loses a game on luck, and at a high level of play get frustrated because what you care about most is reliability (both on the turn you need it and in order to consistently win every game over the course of a tourney).
Truth be told, if it had a fixed number of shots it would probably be lower than the average value rolled on 3d3 (plus 1d3 tokens) since consistency is usually more valuable than spikes. Average is 2 per die, probably be 4 shots and 2 tokens or 5 shots and 1 token.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 13, 2018 18:31:26 GMT
6"/8" move even... and stealth ignoring... hrm, double riflemen, double SFA Kaelyssa list to get the stealth/no charge and drag it out a round? Ossyan feat+fortune just seems so good though, but they would need a melee unit. I think everyone hates variable stuff because you see it roll max and get frustrated because because it wins a game on luck, and because you see it roll min and get frustrated because it loses a game on luck, and at a high level of play get frustrated because what you care about most is reliability (both on the turn you need it and in order to consistently win every game over the course of a tourney). Truth be told, if it had a fixed number of shots it would probably be lower than the average value rolled on 3d3 (plus 1d3 tokens) since consistency is usually more valuable than spikes. Average is 2 per die, probably be 4 shots and 2 tokens or 5 shots and 1 token. People also seem to forget that there's terrain on the table. If someone is scared of this thing just sit behind a house or a forest with their caster until it's dead... the end.
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Post by etheric42 on Jul 13, 2018 20:53:37 GMT
Well, that's what the Kaelyssa+banshee+hydra+AFG is for, silly pesky houses. :-)
I think there's also a little concern with the trident flying at an angle to get LoS, but you can't be immune to everything. At some point something has to be able to shoot you.
But yeah. I hope some year Steamroller experiments with placing terrain the same way X-wing does. Sure, it's a little silly thematically speaking, but it would be nice to be able to go "oof, caster-shooty list, let me just drop a house here" instead of relying on the vagaries of impartial terrain placement. The new terrain rules in 2017/2018 have been great, don't get me wrong, just curious to see if they could be improved upon to help achieve a uniform level of (but not identical) terrain across metas and tables.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jul 14, 2018 19:09:29 GMT
I admit that Trident is probably 2-3 points undercosted. What I don’t understand is how (on average) 3x not boosted and 3x damage boosted RAT6 (you will never aim with it) pow13 attacks can break any competive list in the current meta. In general, top competive lists are made to deal with Kara hunters and Vlad1 rockets. They can deal with Trident. Consider the following: Ossrum bunnyspam will kill it easily. Magnus2 can lock it down and kill it with 8 economy heavies or 60+ halberdiers BI slayers can ignore it. Destruction Iniative has enough shield guards Maelok croc posse will walk over it. Rask feat hard counters it. It can’t remove Wraith engines or revenants It can’t remove Krea buffed Skorne
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 14, 2018 19:43:16 GMT
Should be getting a few games in tomorrow. Probably going to test my Issy list and/or these two lists: [Rahn 1] Adeptis Rahn [+26] - Chimera [8] - Imperatus [20] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Soulless Voidtracer [2] Dawnguard Sentinel Scyir [0(4)] - Harpy [9] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [0(4)] Dawnguard Sentinels (max) [17] - Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard [4] - Soulless Escort (1) [1] Dawnguard Sentinels (max) [17] - Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Soulless Escort (1) [1] Dawnguard Trident [16] [Vyros 1] Dawnlord Vyros [+28] - Chimera [8] - Harpy [9] - Imperatus [20] - Siren [8] - Siren [8] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Lys Healer[3] Mage Hunter Assassin [4] Mage Hunter Assassin [4] Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19] - Soulless Escort (1) [1] Spears of Scyrah [9] - Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander [0] Shhhhhh, don't tell Gaston what he's playing into he'll make lists just to counter me
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 14, 2018 21:04:24 GMT
I admit that Trident is probably 2-3 points undercosted. What I don’t understand is how (on average) 3x not boosted and 3x damage boosted RAT6 (you will never aim with it) pow13 attacks can break any competive list in the current meta. In general, top competive lists are made to deal with Kara hunters and Vlad1 rockets. They can deal with Trident. Consider the following: Ossrum bunnyspam will kill it easily. Magnus2 can lock it down and kill it with 8 economy heavies or 60+ halberdiers BI slayers can ignore it. Destruction Iniative has enough shield guards Maelok croc posse will walk over it. Rask feat hard counters it. It can’t remove Wraith engines or revenants It can’t remove Krea buffed Skorne I honestly think that if anything, the Trident does not do enough. Every time I've played it, I've felt that Destors, Invictors, or Sentinels would have been a straight-up better choice. Ossyan is the only caster who really turns it up to 11, and (as with the AFG before it) it does nothing to counter his bad matchups (which are what keep him from seeing play).
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jul 14, 2018 22:04:53 GMT
oncomingstormMy reasoning for higher point cost is that Trident is basically a super-Seraph (more durability, more shooting, more slipstream). However I have to admit that I haven’t yet played the cid models so I bow before your superior experience. So is the Trident point cost just right or would you perhaps drop it by 1 point?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 14, 2018 22:47:40 GMT
oncomingstorm My reasoning for higher point cost is that Trident is basically a super-Seraph (more durability, more shooting, more slipstream). However I have to admit that I haven’t yet played the cid models so I bow before your superior experience. So is the Trident point cost just right or would you perhaps drop it by 1 point? If I were to have full creative reign to design the Trident, I would flatten out the ROF to 5 (1/3/1?), add Volley Fire. Stops some of the weird scenarios where it randomly blows buffed Gargossals of the table with Ossyan, and makes it actually do good work into infantry on a turn by turn basis (where it's currently hit or miss - literally. Rat 6 isn't great). Make volley fire only work on non-warcaster/warlock models. Currently it needs caster support to be an effective anti infantry piece or the crack armor effectively. This change wouldn't break it with Ravyn (feat also boosts the roll to hit, so no double dipping) or Ossyan (you probably don't want it shooting warrior models on his feat turn anyway) but does a lot to make it a more attractive option with the casters that don't directly buff it, and to flatten out it's turn-by-turn output so it's not so dependent on rolling a good number of shots on feat turn. I've seen the Seraph comparison made before, but I think the reason it falls apart is that A) the Seraph is slightly overcosted for it's output (I thought for years it had d3+1 shots, and that seems about right) and B) gun platform BEs almost universally outperform their warnoun counterparts in raw damage numbers, just because of the versatility of the fury system.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 14, 2018 23:18:24 GMT
Plus all the things that can be shaken by a Seraph hat a BE can't shake. Blind, Shadowbind, etc...
Also this thing doesn't have eyeless sight like a Seraph.
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