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Post by bloodhawk on Jul 9, 2018 17:14:30 GMT
Originally when I read the Dev hos theme benefits I thought it was essentially this, "for every 10 points of tharn models choose a unit and each model in that unit with the heart eater rule gains 1 heart token". That might be an alternative way to handle giving out heart tokens that still keeps the spirit of the heart tokens in tact. That being said, I am with oncomingstorm though, giving heart eater models a single heart token standard would not break them. For example, Death wolves were that way in MkII, and they were barely played. Which means now in MkIII they would be fine where we have an established higher power level.
As for the snacking, I am in agreement this is a throwaway theme benefit. It's situational at best and isn't something that really helps the theme perform better into anything specifically. Generally speaking you want your infantry to kill other infantry in Dev host with your beasts relegated to anti armor. The snacking theme benefit goes against that line of play though.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 9, 2018 17:16:07 GMT
Non-theme is not a consideration. You’re really going to forgo 15+ free points of models, plus (hopefully) useful theme benefits in order to access a few out of theme synergies? I mean, you’re welcome to try, but the lack of non-theme lists anywhere in major tournaments in the last year tells me you’re fighting an uphill battle. And even if you were to do this, I can think of many models that would be higher on the list of ‘potentially game-breaking out of theme synergies’ than male tharn. Overall, playing out of theme is a red herring that scarcely warrants the consideration. If you think out of theme is the way to go, I encourage you to win a major tournament with such a list. Until that happens, I’m not inclined to treat suggestions that out of theme synergies are game-breaking (absent an actual game-breaking interaction, a la top of one shooting, broken trigger loops) as a serious balance consideration. You’re also not contradicting anything I’m saying about Death Wolves. They’re utter crap without hearts (neutered offensive output, easy to remove) and they’re pretty darn good with hearts. IE, hearts are a patch that are needed to make them, as you say, a ‘strong contender’ for lists (though I suspect they will be less so once CID brings up the other options in theme). Personally, I do not think that theme benefits should ever be a patch for an otherwise poor unit design (not least because Death Wolves are available – and not taken – in another theme where they do not get hearts). Non-theme is ALWAYS a consideration, and I do have non-theme lists I like very much, or theme lists that get just 5pts free because maxing free points ends up in a stagnant build or adding garbage for free garbage. So yes, I would give up free points. In a heart beat. Besides, most tourney lists Ive seen in ~15 years of WMH are largely follow-the-leader deals. Most innovative list start where consensus is “x is garbage.” Its ALWAYS worth exploring out of theme when major changes drop. Besides, by definition, at least half the competitive scene are players who lose more than win, by definition. There’s also the false dichotomy here that nothing is good until someone wins with it. I dont make major cons for real life reasons. Can I just have Chuck Elswick win with a list instead? Or does he not count? DW are not crap without hearts, just alot more vulnerable. As to themes patching poor units, welcome to MKIII? Obviously not everything is about what the top level players do. However, when one looks at the Iron Gauntlet at Lock and Load, for instance (by definition composed of highly competitive players, the majority of whom I would warrant ‘win more often than they lose’ even if their record at that specific tournament wasn’t impressive) and sees that 100% of those lists are being played in theme…yeah. That says something about the state of the game. Four of the players in that IG were from my meta, and at least two of them have spent significant time trying to force ‘playing out of theme’ to work competitively. Both have concluded that it does not. This isn’t just a ‘follow the leader’ moment, it’s a matter of some of the best players in the game (and the IG players ARE that) collectively and individually deciding that themes are the way to go. As for themes patching bad units…yeah. The bad themes do that. The ones that are not played competitively. Top themes take good units, units that are already functional without the theme benefit, and make them better. Alternatively, they take unplayed units, and give them a massive boost (Carapace on Cryx jacks e.g.). DevHost fits into neither archetype. As for tournament results being the be all and end all of competitive play…of course they’re not. Having said that, if you’re challenging the collective conclusions of said top-tier players…you need to provide more evidence than ‘I play these lists and they work for me’.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 9, 2018 17:28:52 GMT
Themes are getting more and more self-sufficient due to new models and cid Preassure. This means that the advantage of playing out of theme is diminishing while free points seem to be on the rise. Tharn theme is set to go up to 21pts (2*cav solo + 5pt guy) and Ret is up to 24pts... I don't think a not broken interaction is worth 20pts...
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Post by challenger on Jul 9, 2018 23:18:35 GMT
i don't think that non theme play should be a consideration. the game has gone beyond that. the ship has sailed unfortunately. i think you just have to accept that non theme play is dead and has been for a long time. you just can't compete.
i think heart eater starting with corpses, you could make bloodpack pretty spooky by giving them the ability to boost ranged attacks. but the threat of them getting a turn of potentially 6 boosted pow 13s off into a heavy because of this is... kinda scary, moment you add damage buffs the unit is nuts
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 10, 2018 1:18:33 GMT
i don't think that non theme play should be a consideration. the game has gone beyond that. the ship has sailed unfortunately. i think you just have to accept that non theme play is dead and has been for a long time. you just can't compete. i think heart eater starting with corpses, you could make bloodpack pretty spooky by giving them the ability to boost ranged attacks. but the threat of them getting a turn of potentially 6 boosted pow 13s off into a heavy because of this is... kinda scary, moment you add damage buffs the unit is nuts I don't think that's necessary (or desirable). For one thing, it makes assassination with blood pack fairly trivial with a number of casters. Honestly, I don't think that boosting ranged attacks needs to come back (though I do want to see something like lucky/guided on the LOTF's bird...he's too many points to randomly lose because of double ones). Balancing boosts for ranged attacks is way harder than melee attacks, and it would be easy to tip the blood pack right over from 'unplayable trash' to 'way too strong'. Y'know what would excite me, though? Kromac1 getting some kind of heart eater mechanic, just for him, that lets him consume corpse tokens to either upkeep spells or boost/buy. That would be real neat.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 10, 2018 8:07:28 GMT
LotF is RAT 7, he is looking for a lot more than snake-eyes if he wants to murder some infantry...
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Post by Forsaken on Jul 15, 2018 12:39:00 GMT
Honestly, I don't think that boosting ranged attacks needs to come back (though I do want to see something like lucky/guided on the LOTF's bird...he's too many points to randomly lose because of double ones). Balancing boosts for ranged attacks is way harder than melee attacks, and it would be easy to tip the blood pack right over from 'unplayable trash' to 'way too strong'. This is actually one of the reasons I like the spirit cauldron with LOTF. After loading up his corpses puppetmaster makes his bird reliable and if you don't need it he has it for the melee attack.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 15, 2018 14:07:42 GMT
LotF is RAT 7, he is looking for a lot more than snake-eyes if he wants to murder some infantry... Re-rolling attack rolls vs Living and undead models would be pretty cool for the birb. I think all blood pack need is a way of finishing off a heavy target after peppering it with pow 13’s. I would love to see thier Blades become 1” and gain finisher. Would be super thematic.
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Post by bloodhawk on Jul 15, 2018 16:03:46 GMT
LotF is RAT 7, he is looking for a lot more than snake-eyes if he wants to murder some infantry... Re-rolling attack rolls vs Living and undead models would be pretty cool for the birb. I think all blood pack need is a way of finishing off a heavy target after peppering it with pow 13’s. I would love to see thier Blades become 1” and gain finisher. Would be super thematic. I like the finisher idea. Although, if you can boost ranged attacks with heart tokens that would work as well. I would much prefer an extra ability though for both units. What is the role that bloodpack are supposed to have btw, do we know?
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 17, 2018 3:00:48 GMT
bloodhawk no I don’t want boosts. Because thier issue in MK2 was needing to get into Melee to use thier guns properly. I would rather them have more focussed in a role than mud it up with strange order of operations problems. Eg: Need heart to boost ranges attack, needto be in Melee to gain heart, can’t use ranged attack once in Melee, As far as thier role? Flank harassers and heavy finishers. They pester in the back lines and flanks until it’s time to go in and finish something off.
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Post by bloodhawk on Jul 17, 2018 3:48:16 GMT
bloodhawk no I don’t want boosts. Because thier issue in MK2 was needing to get into Melee to use thier guns properly. I would rather them have more focussed in a role than mud it up with strange order of operations problems. Eg: Need heart to boost ranges attack, needto be in Melee to gain heart, can’t use ranged attack once in Melee, As far as thier role? Flank harassers and heavy finishers. They pester in the back lines and flanks until it’s time to go in and finish something off. I think the only way a ranged boost works is if all models started with a heart token, or the theme provided that benefit somehow. I do much prefer a tertiary ability though as it helps clarify the units role. I agree it is silly for them to require melee in order to perform ok at range. I certainly like the souns of that role for them, but their rules don't lend them to being heavy finishers.
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Post by elshinare on Jul 17, 2018 3:55:34 GMT
bloodhawk no I don’t want boosts. Because thier issue in MK2 was needing to get into Melee to use thier guns properly. I would rather them have more focussed in a role than mud it up with strange order of operations problems. Eg: Need heart to boost ranges attack, needto be in Melee to gain heart, can’t use ranged attack once in Melee, As far as thier role? Flank harassers and heavy finishers. They pester in the back lines and flanks until it’s time to go in and finish something off. With them getting hog wild doesn't this HOPEFULLY get there? I kind of like the idea of them getting something like Hutchuck's Wild Shot ability. Or even how Cygnar has the Tempest Blazers that get to choose brutal damage and other nonsense
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 17, 2018 16:02:21 GMT
elshinare so I actually don’t think Hog Wild helps them fulfill an important aspect of thier roll, which is being a threatening hard hitting skirmish unit. They want toharass the opponent with shots and play cagey, but rat 6 Pow 13 misses def 13 half the time. They don’t ignore concealment or anything so that means against most infantry they need 7’s or 8’s which is just not reliable. If they were to be cheaper than 10/15 I could appreciate the lower offensive output because then they become less of a burden on army composition. But as it stands I think they will need more offensive output to be justified as a choice. Hog wild solidifies them as skirmishers and I do appreciate it as I loved it in Mk2. Makes the unit really good out on a flank or at setting an engagement line. But they don’t really add any biteto the bark of thier threat right now andI think that’s where I start wanting a Damage buff like finisher to make opponents actually respect them.
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Post by paradox on Jul 17, 2018 16:21:10 GMT
What if blood pack just had Brutal Damage on the bows? Add in RNG12” and I think its a good role that supplement ravagers and lets you play a male tharn-based list pretty well. You have ravagers as strong melee hitters on the charge, plus overtake and vengence for troop blendering. Blood pack become more dedicated hard target hunters, preferring lower DEF but able to damage higher ARM.
From there maybe round out the female tharn as noted above, being more pack hunter style. Perhaps Gang or Finisher on bloodweavers? Bloodtrackers are mostly fine, using Prey to help accuracy or damage as needed. Maybe Stealth on wolf riders to help them act as a fast flank?
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Post by bloodhawk on Jul 17, 2018 17:00:02 GMT
I would be all about brutal damage on the blodpack bows. With them being Rat6 I actually think that would work out pretty well. If you combine that with the other changes they feel like they are a solid unit with a place. I am in agreement that Hog wild helps in part, but Pow13 with Rat6 is simply not cutting it these days.
I like the idea of the pack hunter style for Bloodweavers, but they do already have gang. I wish they would return the WM vs living models, that gave them a unique niche. Although I do like the inclusion of Grievous as well. I suppose the life stealer attack is the one I would like to see dropped from them.
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