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Post by reddust82 on Jul 7, 2018 21:20:25 GMT
Hey everyone. I’m a khador player who is looking to have a polar opposite experience in hordes. I love my Irusk2 MoW list but that is one very particular playstyle and I’d like to branch out. So I find myself with a small circle collection. I basically just bought some stuff I liked the look of but don’t have any practical experience on the battlefield. I have Kaya 1 and 2, Feral and Pureblood warpwolves, a riphorn satyr, scarsfell griffon, shifting Stones unit, sentry stone and mannikins unit, a gobber chef and a Gorax Rager. I REALLY like Kaya 2’s feat and general rule set. And what I have I got because I also like their rules... but honestly I have no idea how to put them all together, especially because I love the idea of eating mannikins for fury management but they’re not allowed in the obvious theme that Kaya would run. But if I go outside a theme, I lose so much extra stuff. So I really like the pieces I have for Circle, but I have no idea how to bring it together as a whole. So the question is, how do I be successful with kaya2? In theme or out? What warbeasts do you take? I’m just a complete newb in circle (and the hordes side of the game in general) and I’m looking for help. Help! (And Thanks!)
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Post by wolfchild on Jul 7, 2018 23:03:10 GMT
You might be successful in a small local meta w Kaya 1 / 2, but in the larger competitive meta you’d really struggle. Also, unfortunately we can’t use sentry stones n manikins in Call of the Wild, so ur not gonna get ur manikins in the same list as all ur other stuff if u wanna be in a theme  It’s worth getting a 2nd shifting stone unit for whatever theme u choose to play in and at least one blackclad wayfarer to extend threat ranges and act as toolbox units. |
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Post by reddust82 on Jul 8, 2018 0:11:09 GMT
You might be successful in a small local meta w Kaya 1 / 2, but in the larger competitive meta you’d really struggle. Also, unfortunately we can’t use sentry stones n manikins in Call of the Wild, so ur not gonna get ur manikins in the same list as all ur other stuff if u wanna be in a theme It’s worth getting a 2nd shifting stone unit for whatever theme u choose to play in and at least one blackclad wayfarer to extend threat ranges and act as toolbox units. Ok, so about the theme... is it really worth it? I mean, on the one hand it is because cheaper animi is nice, but the number of extra points is paltry compared to other faction’s themes... like in MoW I get 18 extra points (suppression strike tanker, demo UA), but in Call you get... 10-12? I suppose that’s still significant but I don’t know, maybe I’m just not happy with circle. But I love Kaya’s abilities. I want to make her work. Does anyone have any sample lists, say 50-75 points? Here’s what I’m currently going to try this coming Wednesday. It’s out of theme. I’m trading extra points for more variety. I’ll be playing against Makeda in Skorne running lots of beasts. War Room Army Circle Orboros - Kaya2 - 50 points Theme: No Theme Selected 50 / 50 Army Kaya the Moonhunter - WB: +24 - Druid Wilder - PC: 4 - Laris - Ghetorix - PC: 21 (Battlegroup Points Used: 21) - Loki - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Shadowhorn Satyr - PC: 12 - Wild Argus - PC: 7 Swamp Gobber Chef - PC: 1 Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 Sentry Stone & Mannikins - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5 --- GENERATED : 07/07/2018 20:10:05 BUILD ID : 2067.18-06-10 |
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 8, 2018 0:25:45 GMT
Yes the theme is worth it.
+1 to roll off and free animi are worth it.
You can play out of theme, but you’ll feel massive power level differences if your meta is tougher.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760 
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Post by unded on Jul 8, 2018 10:23:13 GMT
Themes for me are a tough call in both Legion and Circle.
On the one hand playing down 12-18 points is a big hit. On the other hand you really do miss out on very strong synergies in terms of list building in Circle when going in theme. being able to screen warpwolves with mobile sentry stone forests is a big piece of tech, especially when most battlegroup-heavy armies actually out-threat Circle. I really like Wurmwood and Tanith out of theme, and honestly most casters can really benefit well from combining Reeves; Living beasts; Sentry stones and Woldwyrds plus fulcrum.
In other factions (my go-to example is Cryx since I play them a lot) themes are a no-brainer, but in Circle you could really go either way.
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Post by challenger on Jul 8, 2018 12:15:33 GMT
Themes for me are a tough call in both Legion and Circle. On the one hand playing down 12-18 points is a big hit. On the other hand you really do miss out on very strong synergies in terms of list building in Circle when going in theme. being able to screen warpwolves with mobile sentry stone forests is a big piece of tech, especially when most battlegroup-heavy armies actually out-threat Circle. I really like Wurmwood and Tanith out of theme, and honestly most casters can really benefit well from combining Reeves; Living beasts; Sentry stones and Woldwyrds plus fulcrum. In other factions (my go-to example is Cryx since I play them a lot) themes are a no-brainer, but in Circle you could really go either way. In my opinion, themes are still the way. It's an unfortunate reality, but the theme force benefits themselves are really solid for the *most* part. For example, Call of the Wild you can easily get 3 freebies even if you do something a bit off the reservation and bring a unit of Croaks as a screen. You're compensated well in +1 to the starting roll and -1 cost to animii, that's a really cool ability. DH much like Call is basically almost there - i think CID will perfect these two. Call of the Wild with builds like Kromac1, Kromac2 etc is just going to be awesome. DH is looking at Morv, wurmy, krueger1 etc. Bones is completely and totally perfect, no complaints from anyone i dont think I think the 2 weakest themes by far is Secret Masters and Wild Hunt. Both are not "nearly there" like Call and Host are, they need a CID or bust. the points you lose for leaving these realms is so so heavy. just having to play enouhg points down to buy a heavy warbeast is brutal, combined with good theme benefits. i just can't do it |
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Post by sirk on Jul 8, 2018 13:23:09 GMT
First of all, welcome to Circle!!  It's always interesting to have players coming from other factions as it help us understand better ours. So, Kaya2. You are touching a painfull topic here. She has been quite ok in all mk2, never top level caster but always able to make her way. In mk3 she received several direct nerfs (shadow pack not upkeep, completely within for both Laris animus and feat, no more free charges) and indirect nerfs (losing Gnarlhorn animus mostly, she was the caster using it more, no more personal themes as she was almost always played in her), nothing major but all together they hit her quite hard. Now she is still a fun caster to play, but you will really struggle trying to play her on a competitive level. I think this is only possible in a three list event, since she still has some very good match-ups but leaves a lot to be covered. About themes. Unfortunately I think she needs it. I am saying unfortunately since she would benefit so much by both Loki and Sentry Stones, but being left behind 6-7 points is acceptable, while behind 12-18 is definitely too much (expecially since she plays mostly an attrition game, and those points are going to hurt). Also, you will find her 24 points to be a mock since you can get up to 99, 1 point short of the 4th free card! (btw, at 50pts maybe you can try playing out of themes, as there is 1 less free card you are missing, but I guess you are playing 50 just to be familiar with her at 75pts games so maybe not that useful) I've been playing her for all mk2 and I made several tries in mk3 (I'll make more for sure if warpwolves changes are a thing). Now some building advice. Of course full beasts is the way. One feral for primal, at least one stalker for, well for everything he brings(!), and one shadowhorn, because under her he's quite able to do interesting stuff. Pureblood can be usefull as well, since she is your armor cracking choice and Blessed is a better choice than Primal in several occasions. If you play 50pts, you are almost done with these. This will also allow you to practice four different circle heavies and starting understand their ways. I'd stay away from living lights. There is really nothing interesting there. I know many people are ok with Wild Argus, but I found him definitely too slow for his ability to be effective. Also, during feat having less models will make activation order easier (that's an important part of playing her!). As support, shifting stones and wayfarer are a must. I always go for two of the latter since with her threat range is everything. Always, always, ALWAYS (did I say always?) bring with you a gobber chef. It will allow you to play full hot during feat and clear EVERYTHING the following turn since everything will be around Kaya and a couple of stones will clear up to 10 points of fury. The value of that model under Kaya2 is just priceless and it won me many games. Have fun, Kaya2 is a blast to play and one of the casters that still makes you feel you are playing "the Circle way"  Oh, about Kaya1. She is only playable at 25pts or similar levels of play, over that she is just waaaaaay behind everthing else and makes really no sense trying to field her. It's one of the casters we have been waiting forever to be fixed, and I guess we will go on waiting some more. |
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Post by reddust82 on Jul 8, 2018 14:09:39 GMT
Sirk- that’s the response I was looking for! Thank you (and others) for the enthusiastic and deep response. Unfortunately your response was also the one I feared... kaya1/2 just isn’t competitive at higher levels and the themes are overly restrictive. well, I’m going to try her Wednesday anyway and we’ll see how things go.
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Post by sirk on Jul 8, 2018 14:31:28 GMT
You are welcome! Let us know the list you played and the impressions you got. |
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 9, 2018 10:00:59 GMT
Themes for me are a tough call in both Legion and Circle. On the one hand playing down 12-18 points is a big hit. On the other hand you really do miss out on very strong synergies in terms of list building in Circle when going in theme. being able to screen warpwolves with mobile sentry stone forests is a big piece of tech, especially when most battlegroup-heavy armies actually out-threat Circle. I really like Wurmwood and Tanith out of theme, and honestly most casters can really benefit well from combining Reeves; Living beasts; Sentry stones and Woldwyrds plus fulcrum. In other factions (my go-to example is Cryx since I play them a lot) themes are a no-brainer, but in Circle you could really go either way. In my opinion, themes are still the way. It's an unfortunate reality, but the theme force benefits themselves are really solid for the *most* part. For example, Call of the Wild you can easily get 3 freebies even if you do something a bit off the reservation and bring a unit of Croaks as a screen. You're compensated well in +1 to the starting roll and -1 cost to animii, that's a really cool ability. DH much like Call is basically almost there - i think CID will perfect these two. Call of the Wild with builds like Kromac1, Kromac2 etc is just going to be awesome. DH is looking at Morv, wurmy, krueger1 etc. Bones is completely and totally perfect, no complaints from anyone i dont think I think the 2 weakest themes by far is Secret Masters and Wild Hunt. Both are not "nearly there" like Call and Host are, they need a CID or bust. the points you lose for leaving these realms is so so heavy. just having to play enouhg points down to buy a heavy warbeast is brutal, combined with good theme benefits. i just can't do it The hit is big. No denying that. The counterpoint is something like this: Una2 5 x Scarsfell Griffons Gorax Rager 2 x WoldWyrds Celestial Fulcrum Blackclad Wayfarer Blackclad Stoneshaper Shifting Stones 2 x Sentry Stones Una2 has a problem getting assassinated since she wants to blow a lot of FURY. Wind wall is great but there's often a lot of magical guns on the other side. No problem, you have a forest wall that can be extended by casting twister at a mannikin. Una2 doesn't like facing lots of weaponmasters who butcher her birdies. No problem - between mannikins, woldwyrds and the fulcrum, infantry are a thing of the past. Against beast / jack bricks, Una2 can have issues as her birds get their wings torn off with ease. Basically she can't run in, but needs to force the enemy to come to her. Again not a problem - not only do you have 2 Wyrds to soften it up, but you have a Hand Of Fated fulcrum to go nuts. If you want you can even hot-swap Hand of Fate between the fulcrum and a wyrd / budgie. You simply cannot cover as many bases as this covers in Call of the Wild (Una2's default theme) or even in Wild Hunt (a theme I sometimes play her in). I'm not saying out of theme is the way, just that it's not out of the question either. It's not like when I want to play warjacks in Cryx, and I'd have to be an idiot not to play in Black Industries. |
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Post by Forsaken on Jul 10, 2018 0:58:19 GMT
I agree with much of what's already been said but here's a couple other considerations: Kaya2 can potentially do a dark horse list in Bones with multiple geomancers if playing against a hordes army (muzzle). Kaya2 did lose a lot going to mark3 but she does still do alright against gunlines because of Shadowpack (as long as they don't ignore too much stealth) and she still has one of the better threat extenders in the faction. Dogpile stacks with hunter's mark and with a feral or flying beast can threat pretty far.
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Post by challenger on Jul 10, 2018 8:00:33 GMT
In my opinion, themes are still the way. It's an unfortunate reality, but the theme force benefits themselves are really solid for the *most* part. For example, Call of the Wild you can easily get 3 freebies even if you do something a bit off the reservation and bring a unit of Croaks as a screen. You're compensated well in +1 to the starting roll and -1 cost to animii, that's a really cool ability. DH much like Call is basically almost there - i think CID will perfect these two. Call of the Wild with builds like Kromac1, Kromac2 etc is just going to be awesome. DH is looking at Morv, wurmy, krueger1 etc. Bones is completely and totally perfect, no complaints from anyone i dont think I think the 2 weakest themes by far is Secret Masters and Wild Hunt. Both are not "nearly there" like Call and Host are, they need a CID or bust. the points you lose for leaving these realms is so so heavy. just having to play enouhg points down to buy a heavy warbeast is brutal, combined with good theme benefits. i just can't do it The hit is big. No denying that. The counterpoint is something like this: Una2 5 x Scarsfell Griffons Gorax Rager 2 x WoldWyrds Celestial Fulcrum Blackclad Wayfarer Blackclad Stoneshaper Shifting Stones 2 x Sentry Stones Una2 has a problem getting assassinated since she wants to blow a lot of FURY. Wind wall is great but there's often a lot of magical guns on the other side. No problem, you have a forest wall that can be extended by casting twister at a mannikin. Una2 doesn't like facing lots of weaponmasters who butcher her birdies. No problem - between mannikins, woldwyrds and the fulcrum, infantry are a thing of the past. Against beast / jack bricks, Una2 can have issues as her birds get their wings torn off with ease. Basically she can't run in, but needs to force the enemy to come to her. Again not a problem - not only do you have 2 Wyrds to soften it up, but you have a Hand Of Fated fulcrum to go nuts. If you want you can even hot-swap Hand of Fate between the fulcrum and a wyrd / budgie. You simply cannot cover as many bases as this covers in Call of the Wild (Una2's default theme) or even in Wild Hunt (a theme I sometimes play her in). I'm not saying out of theme is the way, just that it's not out of the question either. It's not like when I want to play warjacks in Cryx, and I'd have to be an idiot not to play in Black Industries. This might be crazy, but Post CID i can see Una2 with a buffed storm raptor and buffed lord of the feast just absolutely going to town on infantry. Hand of Fated raptor that can animus for free and fire twice with lightning generator is great. Lord with hand of fate is scary to even medium base infantry. |
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 10, 2018 8:35:31 GMT
The hit is big. No denying that. The counterpoint is something like this: Una2 5 x Scarsfell Griffons Gorax Rager 2 x WoldWyrds Celestial Fulcrum Blackclad Wayfarer Blackclad Stoneshaper Shifting Stones 2 x Sentry Stones Una2 has a problem getting assassinated since she wants to blow a lot of FURY. Wind wall is great but there's often a lot of magical guns on the other side. No problem, you have a forest wall that can be extended by casting twister at a mannikin. Una2 doesn't like facing lots of weaponmasters who butcher her birdies. No problem - between mannikins, woldwyrds and the fulcrum, infantry are a thing of the past. Against beast / jack bricks, Una2 can have issues as her birds get their wings torn off with ease. Basically she can't run in, but needs to force the enemy to come to her. Again not a problem - not only do you have 2 Wyrds to soften it up, but you have a Hand Of Fated fulcrum to go nuts. If you want you can even hot-swap Hand of Fate between the fulcrum and a wyrd / budgie. You simply cannot cover as many bases as this covers in Call of the Wild (Una2's default theme) or even in Wild Hunt (a theme I sometimes play her in). I'm not saying out of theme is the way, just that it's not out of the question either. It's not like when I want to play warjacks in Cryx, and I'd have to be an idiot not to play in Black Industries. This might be crazy, but Post CID i can see Una2 with a buffed storm raptor and buffed lord of the feast just absolutely going to town on infantry. Hand of Fated raptor that can animus for free and fire twice with lightning generator is great. Lord with hand of fate is scary to even medium base infantry. I do like those ideas (they're actually really cool), but I can't see them matching the damage of just the fulcrum, let alone the fulcrum plus 2 Wyrds. Then again, Pidgey benefits from the SPD part of her feat, which is pretty neat. Might be enough for me to justify buying a Pidgey if the rules look usable. *edit* I have actually played LotF with Una2 before, and I can confirm that he is a monster vs infantry and with HoF. The problem is that he is a one-use missile, and so with good spacing your opponent can limit his effectiveness. It's really hard to do that to Wyrds / Fulcrum while still being relevant to the game. |
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