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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 2, 2018 19:18:47 GMT
So, our most beautiful beast got an useful animus!
The dragon does boost himself, but he can also boost your entire army. Let's design an army around his animus!
guidelines:
- a shooting oriented/supporting warlock, since all of the models with fire attack type have that on their guns. Fire based magic is acceptable, but that is only on warlocks. So I guess Lylyth 1 and 2, Vayl1 as first candidates, Kryssa, Kallus 1 and 2 as second in line.
- dilemmas on models that do not have fire based attacks but may still significantly contribute: Bloodseer, BoltThrower, Naga, Ice Witches, BFS?
- Is a Seraph better than a Ravagore? 2 pts difference, same threat range, Seraph contributes with animus and Flare, but Rav has that sweet high POW blast... decisions... I generally believe that Ravagore is the better option with Lyl2 because feat increases its output way more, but Seraph comes ahead with Lyl1 and Vayl1 because of additional buffing on its multiple shots.
- other firebreathers: Blightbringer, Azrael, Zuriel, Carnivean, Typhon, Teraph, Angelius, Stinger. Note, for all of these models there are better value models or their fire breathing is kind of secondary to their main purpose. Since Vayl1 buffs stuff from up close, some of these may prove very useful.
-Lastly, the frogs! Croak Raiders are our only infantry option with fire attacks, and with their own buff with Oil gourds. Note: you actually have a chance to soak a target in oil 13 in away, as it is an AoE attack and may scatter up to 4 in further than the maximum range, and overlap with targets base an inch (and a half) further. Croaks will not benefit from anything Lyl2 or Vayl1 does, but will make use of Lyl1's Parasite. In theory, that makes several boosted pow16s plus a boosted pow17 on opponents turn. Nice.
Please share your thoughts, army lists, experiences, tips and tricks, wishlisting (I wish for a solo that gives a fire type attack to another models ranged and/or melee attacks), and noting that this will be useless against some fire immune armies is permitted, but please do not weigh the thread down with it. Playing this type of list is fun and effective against most opponents.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 3, 2018 3:20:42 GMT
I am currently trying to make this work with Lylyth1, an Archangel, a Seraph, Typhon, and the Blackfrost Shard. The list is in flux, but usually includes the Swordsmen with UA.
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Post by josephkerr on Jul 3, 2018 7:43:59 GMT
Im thinking Lylyth1 as well, but in theme with Croak Raiders as the minion option. They get up to effective pow 16 with parasite and animus. My concern their is whether or not I need Bloodseer so I dont need the gargantuan to paint targets for the Raiders.
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 3, 2018 10:14:15 GMT
Bloodseer seems to have a lot going for it.
Of course, you use it to cast the Archangels animus, I just wanted to clear that up so there are no misconceptions.
He can start in front of your AA (both fly, so this should not be a problem), cast the animus, charge. Now he has enveloped under the animus further than AA could (he started a couple of inches in front of the AA, moved 8 in vs AAs max. 7 and Slipstream could have helped too), so that AA can use his free move to move back with the aura still on, AAs missed AoEs are still effected with his Animus which will become important on the opponents turn when the fires won't go out and still hurt with that bonus, and Blodseer serves as a speed bump to any retaliations (his P+S is not much, but he has Reach and crit knockdown, and he is really tough for his points.) Not to mention having a Bloodseer simplifies order of activation issues and saves one Fury on the AA for more boosting.
Typhon is something to consider. He has also a high POW gun, but a spray one, so potentially even more destruction, low threat range by itself, but can be slipstreamed and Leashed/Miraged, and he buffs himself defensively. However, once you take Typhon the BFS also come into the picture as a very viable option.
I had a game with Lyl1 and Lyl2. Lyl2 feat worked like a charm, killed a Collosal no problem, however after the feat it all came down to melee. Perhaps if I had a Bloodseer it would have given me another round of shooting.
Lyl1 was a win too, but a different kind. The opponent thought he was safe parking Sorscha at DEF20 (clouds, magic, high ground) with Beast09 as Shield Guard and some 4 Focus on her IIRC. I popped feat (four dice on to-hit, and once Seraph got Flare on her... but BFS had little impact as Sorscha is immune to cold, so just Kiss of Lylis on her) and layered debuffs on her, she could not have survived.
In those two games, I still doubt the effectiveness of Ravagores, for Lyl1 the Bolt thrower is a must because of the animus, for Lyl2 you can do without, as she has her Arcane Amplifier. In both games Naga was not present or needeed as there were no insurmountable buffs to circumvent, but I wonder if there was a Journeyman or Krea on the other side, if that would make the difference. I should paint my Bloodseer and Croaks and experiment further.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 3, 2018 10:42:33 GMT
Bloodseer seems to have a lot going for it. Of course, you use it to cast the Archangels animus, I just wanted to clear that up so there are no misconceptions. He can start in front of your AA (both fly, so this should not be a problem), cast the animus, charge. Now he has enveloped under the animus further than AA could (he started a couple of inches in front of the AA, moved 8 in vs AAs max. 7 and Slipstream could have helped too), so that AA can use his free move to move back with the aura still on, AAs missed AoEs are still effected with his Animus which will become important on the opponents turn when the fires won't go out and still hurt with that bonus, and Blodseer serves as a speed bump to any retaliations (his P+S is not much, but he has Reach and crit knockdown, and he is really tough for his points.) Not to mention having a Bloodseer simplifies order of activation issues and saves one Fury on the AA for more boosting. Typhon is something to consider. He has also a high POW gun, but a spray one, so potentially even more destruction, low threat range by itself, but can be slipstreamed and Leashed/Miraged, and he buffs himself defensively. However, once you take Typhon the BFS also come into the picture as a very viable option. I had a game with Lyl1 and Lyl2. Lyl2 feat worked like a charm, killed a Collosal no problem, however after the feat it all came down to melee. Perhaps if I had a Bloodseer it would have given me another round of shooting. Lyl1 was a win too, but a different kind. The opponent thought he was safe parking Sorscha at DEF20 (clouds, magic, high ground) with Beast09 as Shield Guard and some 4 Focus on her IIRC. I popped feat (four dice on to-hit, and once Seraph got Flare on her... but BFS had little impact as Sorscha is immune to cold, so just Kiss of Lylis on her) and layered debuffs on her, she could not have survived. In those two games, I still doubt the effectiveness of Ravagores, for Lyl1 the Bolt thrower is a must because of the animus, for Lyl2 you can do without, as she has her Arcane Amplifier. In both games Naga was not present or needeed as there were no insurmountable buffs to circumvent, but I wonder if there was a Journeyman or Krea on the other side, if that would make the difference. I should paint my Bloodseer and Croaks and experiment further. I think the choir is too much of a hard "No" to leave home with a shooty list that doesn't have a Naga.
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on Jul 3, 2018 11:54:17 GMT
Since you said they're only guidelines and not rules, I rather enjoyed brining an Abby1 gun list (not quite this one, but similar) at a team tournament semi recently.
Absylonia, Terror of Everblight - WB: +31 - Archangel - PC: 37 (Battlegroup Points Used: 31) - Ravagore - PC: 16 - Ravagore - PC: 16 - Seraph - PC: 14 - Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 8 - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8
The Forsaken - PC: 0 The Forsaken - PC: 0 Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 0
Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
I don't think Legion can really run a Cygnar style gun list these days (especially when you're sinking 37 points of guns into the AA) so I like Abby1 like this. She doesn't strictly support shooting, but she makes such good use of the Archangel, Ravagores or the Seraph with Refuge are cute, and the list can hold up reasonably well in melee at the end game. Don't forget the Ravagore got a 3rd initial attack in Mk3 (I certainly did the first time I played this list since I rarely run them anymore).
Basically the idea is that the guns here are decent enough in their own right to do enough damage, and you do it with very few concessions on your melee game since it WILL come to that thanks to scenario.
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 3, 2018 13:40:20 GMT
I think the choir is too much of a hard "No" to leave home with a shooty list that doesn't have a Naga. Good point. Taking that and Croaks into account, we may consider a Trog Mist Speaker too.
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 3, 2018 13:48:28 GMT
Since you said they're only guidelines and not rules, I rather enjoyed brining an Abby1 gun list (not quite this one, but similar) at a team tournament semi recently. Absylonia, Terror of Everblight - WB: +31 - Archangel - PC: 37 (Battlegroup Points Used: 31) - Ravagore - PC: 16 - Ravagore - PC: 16 - Seraph - PC: 14 - Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 8 - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 The Forsaken - PC: 0 The Forsaken - PC: 0 Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 0 Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 I don't think Legion can really run a Cygnar style gun list these days (especially when you're sinking 37 points of guns into the AA) so I like Abby1 like this. She doesn't strictly support shooting, but she makes such good use of the Archangel, Ravagores or the Seraph with Refuge are cute, and the list can hold up reasonably well in melee at the end game. Don't forget the Ravagore got a 3rd initial attack in Mk3 (I certainly did the first time I played this list since I rarely run them anymore). Basically the idea is that the guns here are decent enough in their own right to do enough damage, and you do it with very few concessions on your melee game since it WILL come to that thanks to scenario. Yes, that is in essence the same list I tried with the two Lylyths. In general, you can swap any caster in there and adjust the points accordingly and get a workable list. Like I said, my test battle with Lyl2 did very well on the initial contact with shooting, but after that the match was decided with melee and mobility of the AA, so practically the same. I really wonder about Ravagores, replace one with a Croak unit, other one with a Typhon, or BFS (points permitting/adjusting of course), a shooting support Warlock... maybe you do get a heavy shooting army that does do almost all work with shooting.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jul 3, 2018 14:28:43 GMT
Two things:
If you are playing any of the Lyls, you will have low fury scores and will therefore really appreciate the Telemetry the Bloodseer will bring.
Teraph? It feels like a better use of points than the Ravagore if you are really going to spam fire. Otherwise you are paying for all the pillow-fisting of the Ravagore's melee with a caster who can't really support it. Plus AD and Dig In is really useful in a shooting game.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jul 3, 2018 14:32:20 GMT
Two things: If you are playing any of the Lyls, you will have low fury scores and will therefore really appreciate the Telemetry the Bloodseer will bring. So will your Ice Witches and BFS. Teraph? It feels like a better use of points than the Ravagore if you are really going to spam fire. Otherwise you are paying for all the pillow-fisting of the Ravagore's melee with a caster who can't really support it. Plus AD and Dig In is really useful in a shooting game.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jul 3, 2018 14:36:20 GMT
I was thinking along different lines. With a bloodseer I usually want some spellcasters in there, which makes me think hexhunters, and as such kryssa because of ashen veil and feat, and along with them raek. Might as well bring BFS and/or witches at that point. It will give you some serious jamming potential alongside the bloodseer into living creatures and can probably earn you another turn of shooting. In a setup like that I can see croak raiders doing some decent shooting throughout the game too.
Kryssa - AA - Bloodseer - Raek - Neraph
Max hexhunters Max croak raiders BFS (or witches + 2x spellmartyr) 2x free forsaken
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 3, 2018 15:26:57 GMT
Two things: If you are playing any of the Lyls, you will have low fury scores and will therefore really appreciate the Telemetry the Bloodseer will bring. Teraph? It feels like a better use of points than the Ravagore if you are really going to spam fire. Otherwise you are paying for all the pillow-fisting of the Ravagore's melee with a caster who can't really support it. Plus AD and Dig In is really useful in a shooting game. Lyl1 won't, see Witch Mark. Lyl2, depends on her build. If she just doles out Pin Cushion from the back and does not shoot too much, then Telemetry is a meh. Also, as Seraph is a given, its Flare will do the job of Telemetry. Ice witches will mainly dole out Puppet master, so Telemetry is not significant. BFS may like it. Overall, Telemetry is not that crucial to this army build. It may be useful here and there. Teraph is not the winner over Ravagore. His shot is too weak, and critical Fire is still just a crit, not something to bank on. It is better to light everyone ablaze with Croaks and AA, and then pound on with other firebreathers, and Teraph does not excel there. Everything IMO, of course.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 3, 2018 15:51:14 GMT
Lyl2, depends on her build. If she just doles out Pin Cushion from the back and does not shoot too much, then Telemetry is a meh. Pin Cushion is an Offensive spell. Starting at 5 FURY she has to boost to hit and even then misses too much for my taste. Telemetry would be nice.
I don't know why her shooting has any dependence on taking a bloodseer or using telemetry o.0? explain?
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 3, 2018 16:06:28 GMT
Lyl2, depends on her build. If she just doles out Pin Cushion from the back and does not shoot too much, then Telemetry is a meh. Pin Cushion is an Offensive spell. Starting at 5 FURY she has to boost to hit and even then misses too much for my taste. Telemetry would be nice.
I don't know why her shooting has any dependence on taking a bloodseer or using telemetry o.0? explain?
If she shoots, she will use Fury to buy and boost shots and possibly for the Snipe animus, so less Fury to cast Pin Cushion. If she hangs back and just magics stuff away, she can boost with Pin Cushion. Point is, taking a Bloodseer in this army build is just minimally affected by the Telemetry feature. It is mostly about it casting the AAs animus for him, and whether he is worth it. Everything IMO. If you have a battle report where Telemetry saved the day or did significant work with a similar army build, please share.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Jul 3, 2018 17:27:14 GMT
I don't like the idea of building the list around it. It takes a one-dimensional list angle (shooting) and makes it even more one dimensional with an elemental necessity. For me the best 'shooting' lists are lists that can still threaten in melee, and the threat of melee actually makes it a better shooting list because rushing to engage is not a viable counter. So following the above criterias, I'd have to go for this: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0taEkOcObfkMkMaObeb9b9Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation [Vayl 1] Vayl, Disciple of Everblight [+27] - Archangel [37] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Ravagore [16] - Ravagore [16] - Seraph [14] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] The Forsaken [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)] 2 boosted POW17s, 2 boosted POW14s and 2 boosted POW16s (minimum shooting of the list with random shots) averages 36.5 damage vs ARM 20, comfortably removing a khador heavy every turn, and that's without incite. Add as much as 12 more damage to factor incite. Yet the list is still very comfortable in melee, with incite and slipstream on ravagores and the archangel is good in melee innately. However, I'd rather run this kind of list with Thagrosh2 or Abby2. They may not buff shooting, but unnatural aggression and return fire have potential counter-play against enemy shooting, and its easier to leverage their buffs as needed for melee. edit: it occurs to me that I forgot ice witches. Ice witches are essential in a shooting list. I'd probably drop the bolt thrower for them and maybe take some cheap support solos to fill out the rest of the points.
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