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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 6, 2018 20:34:35 GMT
I just think if you take tankers you are LARGELY taking them for an unboosted shoot and thus need to be fine with that. Absent a LOT of attrition it seems like you will always have at least 6 better feat token options and almost aways have better HoF Hot swap options. Maybe put another way - what ROLE are they filling in your vlad2 AC list that you don't have other models also able to fill? Meanwhile the Eliminators are there for a much different role than any of your other models - fast pesky girls to get to the back of the board to help with the scoring pace. Plus they are very solid feat token options - possible with HoF of simply ending the game right then and there. Good points. I do like the Tankers for bulldoze on a stick, and they camp flags like a boss. On feat turn, at SPD 7 (run 14 with bulldoze) a tanker might be better at clearing out a zone than anything else in the army. Also, the Grievous Wounds has proven a big asset. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 7, 2018 12:40:40 GMT
sand20go and I have been having a side-bar discussion on tips, tricks and tactics for the Vlad 2 list. I thought I’d share some highlights, and also ask for your thoughts and input. (Some of this is probably obvious for you folks who are experienced with Vlad 2 / Armored Korp, but for a rusty player like it’s useful to organize this stuff into one reference list). Democorp: Timing for using the Bond seems to be a big deal. A tactic here seems to be to decide whether or not to transfer damage at all (turns out, if your opponent spikes damage with a heavy you might just let the poor sod go. Also, the wording on the card allows you to choose how many points of damage to transfer, so you can transfer damage and still trigger vengeance if you leave a point of damage on the attacked model. I confirmed this rule for Bond of Brotherhood on the rules forum, and an infernal has weighed in. With Vlad 2, you can crank the odds of getting a critical freeze with the DemoCorp between HoF and boosting an attack roll - generally it’s in the 30% to 40% range. (And yes, HoF does help here even though you’re dropping a die just because you’re hitting more often, so the overall odds go up.) Atanas & Standard: It turns out Atanas has a RNG 12 gun. (And if he has one, how the hell did Sorscha 0 not get one). The Standard Bearer has a sword, and late game you might want to use it. Tankers: Bulldoze on a stick for clearing zones is a thing, especially when you can improve their base SPD. HoF: Hot swap it every round Vlad 2 isn’t focus strapped. I know from playing Vlad 1 Bombadiers how damn good those guys are when you start to break the dice math. My experience here with DemoCorp is more limited, but HoF Math is what it is. Victor: The piece I haven’t quite nailed down is when to put HoF on the Victor, but I can see an argument here. Let’s say you go first. Turn 2 you know Victor is shooting, so maybe you give up Assail turn 1 and cast HoF instead. That costs you 1” of movement, but Turn 2 you’ve now got HoF for Victor, followed up by HoF on the Bombers. That’s pretty hard core. Of course, Assail on Vicky is solid gold. Who doesn’t like +2” SPD and free charges. What I will need to remember (because it will be so easy to forget since I never use it) is the option of Power Strike. I think that stacks with Assail, so a slam gets d6+4”! Whoa... Kayazy Elims: I appreciate Sand’s insight that - if nothing else - you’ve got these girls to run and contest a far zone. I also always need to remind myself how insane they are when you feat on them and they get in melee together. SPD 10, MAT 12, POW 18, DEF 20 and if you stack HoF on them...wow. OK folks...what else am I missing?
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 7, 2018 12:52:46 GMT
sand20go and I have been having a side-bar discussion on tips, tricks and tactics for the Vlad 2 list. I thought I’d share some highlights, and also ask for your thoughts and input. Democorp: Timing for using the Bond seems to be a big deal. A tactic here seems to be to decide whether or not to transfer damage at all (turns out, if your opponent spikes damage with a heavy you might just let the poor sod go. Also, the wording on the card allows you to choose how many points of damage to transfer, so you can transfer damage and still trigger vengeance if you leave a point of damage on the attacked model. I confirmed this rule for Bond of Brotherhood on the rules forum, and an infernal has weighed in. I haven't had the chance to try it out, but in theory it sounds like a great use of SB. So always check ranges when your enemy starts shooting you, I think you could manage to sink a lot of damage into one manowar. Opponents usually start on one end and work towards the other end of a unit. If you use SB to apply damage in the opposite direction, by the time the enemy gets tp your last couple Demo models, they are overkilling, while you're left with 3-4 healthy demos. This especially works in melee, and when they have tough. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 7, 2018 18:17:01 GMT
sand20go and I have been having a side-bar discussion on tips, tricks and tactics for the Vlad 2 list. I thought I’d share some highlights, and also ask for your thoughts and input. (Some of this is probably obvious for you folks who are experienced with Vlad 2 / Armored Korp, but for a rusty player like it’s useful to organize this stuff into one reference list). Democorp: Timing for using the Bond seems to be a big deal. A tactic here seems to be to decide whether or not to transfer damage at all (turns out, if your opponent spikes damage with a heavy you might just let the poor sod go. Also, the wording on the card allows you to choose how many points of damage to transfer, so you can transfer damage and still trigger vengeance if you leave a point of damage on the attacked model. I confirmed this rule for Bond of Brotherhood on the rules forum, and an infernal has weighed in. Yeah, timing requires a fair bit of consideration. Obviously you want to time it for maximum impact, but judging that point is not trivial. First, though, you have to realise its limitations. It doesn't really reduce any damage, it's just a distribution exercise. What you want is an edge case where your opponent has the opportunity to do some damage to them, but not enough to obliterate them. The best case for this is shooting, or weak infantry. If your opponent has the firepower to kill two or three, that's the time to use the BoB. If your opponent shoots them, you can probably save them all and trigger vengeance. But it's also possible your opponent will just go 'I do not want you to have more attacks and threat range' and shoot something else instead. Both of these are good for you. Same with weak infantry; if you're gummed up with something P+S12 or less, chances are you can tank the attacks and retaliate well. There's not a lot of point triggering it when you're going to take heavy melee damage, unless they've only managed to get one model on to each Demo Corps. Then you can be sneaky. Say A, B, and C all have one model in melee with them, and they hit like trucks. You could have A take some of his damage, but transfer enough to kill model B, and possibly even C. Now your opponent cannot attack them, and even though you've lost two models you've actually lessened the damage to the unit by reducing the number of attacks you take. The problem with this is that you don't know how much damage your opponent is going to roll, and also that it doesn't work if you are using Defensive Line, as there will always be a close enough target for them to attack instead. Vlad2 adds a separate dimension, in that his feat makes them actually pretty tanky. This is always a good time to use the mini-feat, because it acts as a force multiplier to Vlad2's feat. Killing a DEF15 ARM19 model is not too hard, but it's much harder when you know you need overkill to make it stick. I would argue that this is inefficient. HoF Demo Corps will wreck a Juggernaut in 3 hits on the charge, and will hit things up to DEF 15 pretty reliably (over 70% chance). Fishing for the crit is all well and good, but unless you're trying to kill an ARM boosted Wold or something it's overkill. If you're trying to hit something DEF 16+, then sure. But for crit fishing, I would think that you have better ways to spend the focus. All of these things are true, but I still can't bring myself to care about Bombardiers. Assuming that you want HoF on your feat targets, remember that you can swap it on to them on the feat turn, but swapping it off will cause timing issues. Plan ahead. Yeah, the slam thing works. HoF is great on everything, so just play that by ear. Things rolling more dice get more out of it, so Assaulting Shocktroopers get loads of use. A friend of mine referred to Eliminators as 'the Unstoppable Murder Twins' after I feated on them once. Highly recommended. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 13, 2018 2:43:12 GMT
So I got in a game with Butcher tonight playing this list:
War Room Army
Khador - Butcher 3 Kommand
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 4
- Marauder - PC: 11
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 4
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
I friend at the game store dropped Gaspy 3 Slayer Spam into me at my request. It was the first time I played into either Gaspy 3 or Slayer Spam, and my first game since...week 2 of the Armored Corp CID? You could literally see the rust coming off my tape measure and models.
We played the game out twice, because on Turn 2 he positioned Gaspy too close to a model Butcher could charge, giving me a successful assassination run. We decided to play it out again, and this time he was able to assassinate me after my feat turn.
Some thoughts on the matchup:
- Butcher seems favored. He can kill a lot of dudes.
- Damn, am I rusty.
- I need to my ranged support out front. They can’t dent the heavy armor but it turns out the support staff really needs to die.
- Vociferon does WHAT?!?
- A Slayer is ARM 23 walking away from a free strike?!?
- Turns out Gaspy 3 can collect a lot of souls. Try not to feed him more souls than necessary.
- Sorscha 0 is...really useful. On Butcher, her utility was mostly about saving him the 2 focus (BC over Energizer).
So I think I like this list the way it is. I can see why the WGI infantry would be really nice here, and in this matchup they would have been better, so I can see the argument for dropping the Rifle Corp and a Mortar for a unit of Rifles and 3 points of something (Artillerist, or upgrade to the Marauder).
A question I’m also pondering is what to do if Sorscha 0 isn’t available at the con. Thoughts?
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Post by borderprince on Jul 13, 2018 5:15:43 GMT
So I think I like this list the way it is. I can see why the WGI infantry would be really nice here, and in this matchup they would have been better, so I can see the argument for dropping the Rifle Corp and a Mortar for a unit of Rifles and 3 points of something (Artillerist, or upgrade to the Marauder). It's ages since I've mentioned this, but would the War Dog be a decent choice for the 3 points? Gives Butcher a bit more protection. You didn't say how the post-feat assassination of Butcher occurred, but if it was melee the Dog might be a decent choice. Otherwise the Artillery Kaptain for scenario purposes.
Throw a tantrum? Or just sulk if you don't think you can manage a full on throw yourself to the floor screaming.
More constructively, in a WGI version of the list, add a second mortar.
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Post by auraco on Jul 13, 2018 12:08:01 GMT
I don't think the war dog is ever the right choice. It's too easy to remove when it really matters to be worth it and it doesn't have enough impact on the game. I think an artillery Kapitan is always better in a WGK list, it can camp a flag and still support the army with artillerist, if your dog camps a flag, well he's pretty much doing nothing else.
Also if you need the dog to protect your caster it means you did something wrong because the other guy is attacking your caster, I'd rather have support to give me the upper hand early in the game and not need defensive support like the dog than to have some dead weight that might be usefull later down the line.
I think Sorscha0 changes the Gaspy3 Slayerspam match up a lot, without it butcher doesn't outthreat the slayers unless vengeance was triggered, making the match up a big game of chicken that favors Gaspy3 on scenario since he can set up further up the board than Butcher can, With Sorscha and the ability to outthreat Slayers Butcher can apply pressure where needed, his threat range even if you don't use it becomes a control tool by having a big denial zone around him.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474 
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 13, 2018 15:31:02 GMT
I'd argue there is a great deal of value in trying to get your enemy to attack your caster and failing, but it's pretty darn risky.
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Post by auraco on Jul 14, 2018 12:43:03 GMT
I've lost enough games to hot dices to not want to risk that strategy unless I'm desperate. I don't like trying to use the dog for that on purpose.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jul 16, 2018 10:44:02 GMT
A question I’m also pondering is what to do if Sorscha 0 isn’t available at the con. Thoughts? Somebody at my local game store was just saying that he heard from Doug Hamilton at Lock & Load that they'd only just gotten the stuff together to get started on Sorscha 0's digital sculpt. I'd be pretty shocked if they had models ready to go for GenCon. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 17, 2018 2:02:47 GMT
A question I’m also pondering is what to do if Sorscha 0 isn’t available at the con. Thoughts? Somebody at my local game store was just saying that he heard from Doug Hamilton at Lock & Load that they'd only just gotten the stuff together to get started on Sorscha 0's digital sculpt. I'd be pretty shocked if they had models ready to go for GenCon. This forum needs a sad face button. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 17, 2018 6:46:08 GMT
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 19, 2018 0:34:10 GMT
OK, time for Input Round 2.
I have clear confirmation from PP that Sorscha 0 won’t be available. So, my B3 list needs to change. I had an opportunity to get some practice in with the S0 Verizon of my list, and without her I think I either want More Cheap Jacks or I want More Rockets.
So, I’m looking at this as a potential go-to:
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Marauder - PC: 11 (or, Berserker + Arillerist)
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 4
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
I’ve dropped the WGRC to min and lost the Juggernaut in order to find room for a 3rd Marauder. This seems...pretty good. I lose a 2nd solo so my scenario presences is downgraded and I could drop a Marauder to a Berserker and fit in an Artillery Kaptain, which seems OK too.
My Moar Rockets version looks like this:
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
2 / 2 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Marauder - PC: 11
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 4
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
I simply abhor playing a point down, but can’t figure out how not to without losing an O&S or a Rocket.
* * *
OK, 2nd crisis. I don’t know that I’m going to get much opportunity to practice with my Armored Corp list, which I like. The list is this:
Theme: Armored Corps
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Orsus Zoktavir - WJ: +28
- Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28)
Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4
Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 0
Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16
- Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4
Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16
- Man-O-War Bombardier Officer - PC: 0
Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 4 Grunts: 14
- Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich - PC: 0
Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
I like the list and don’t feel it needs editing. But I’m not super comfortable with the list since due to limited play time.
So...
I AM comfortable with Karchev. Played him all the time and he’s like comfortable shoes to me. I’m I screwed if I put this in with Butcher 3?
Khador - Karchev's 9 Lives
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf
4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Berserker - PC: 8
- Berserker - PC: 8
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0
- Destroyer - PC: 14
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Yuri the Axe - PC: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
This needs to cover the matchups Butcher can’t handle. I love 9 jacks. I love 3 really good RTW triggers for the round where it matters (Yuri, Destroyer, and Marksman). I am very comfortable with Karchev.
What do you think?
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 19, 2018 10:58:12 GMT
I think you should try and bring Malakov in on the action with B3. He's a separate unit from Butcher and is focus independent. Give him a marauder.
B2 with AC? I mean it's like what I want to play, but that random focus will shoot you in the crotch at some point. But fury'd demo corps with multiple attacks makes my nipples go hard.
And karchev is still karchev at the end of the day. No complaints.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 19, 2018 15:08:36 GMT
Play what you're comfortable with. B2 is one of my favourite casters (because I'm a nutter), but he's not one you want to be leaning on unless you are supremely comfortable.
As to the WGK list, I would slightly prefer an amalgam, where you drop the Marauder in favour of a full unit of WGI with command. It has more hitting power, mobility, sprays, and whatnot.
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