trex
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 3
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Post by trex on Jul 1, 2018 11:05:03 GMT
(I don't know if this should be here or in TB sector)
Hey guys & girls;
I'm a 40k player that is looking at getting into Hordes, and I want you advise. Since this stuff is pretty expensive I want to plan my army ahead. I don't plan to ever go over 50 points, let's say this is for a 30+ or so point list.
So esthetically I liked trollbloods and minions (the swamp part of them). Taking into account both cost & lore, I'm tending more towards trollbloods.
Since I do like the swamp theme, in the army i would like to combine two units:
- Swamp troll: I like how it looks and what it does. I heard it pairs up well with slow melee units. Would even consider two of them although that's too gimmicy right?
- Croack raiders: the reason I'm interested in the game in the first place, they are super cool to me. Since they work on fire I figured out Horgle the anvil seems a good HQ?
In terms of strategy, I'm not looking for an all-ranged list. Both skirmish (mixed) and close range would do.
So... any tips for puzzeling these two units into an economic list?
Friendly greetings |
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358 
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Post by germanicus on Jul 1, 2018 16:21:14 GMT
No worries, it can go into either (here or Trollbloods sub-forum, that is). Right, first off, WMH/40K are fundamentally very different beasts owing to how short range and largely unrandomised the game tends to be (for the most part, it's attack and damage, in a vague analogue of hit/wounding but no ARM/Inv svs), so in comparison, it's a much more physically compressed game. What you go for, or rather why you go for them, will be based on who you'll be playing against. Will you be joining a group of similarly casual (i.e. you'll stick to 35pts or so?) or an established WMH community? A lot of how some answer will depend on this. That said, there's nothing wrong with sticking to a moderately low points level, but depending on your opposition, you may find yourself on the back foot almost permanently, or your opposition may find themselves in such a situation, neither of which are particularly good outcomes. For example, you like Horgle, and that's fine, he's quite a fun caster and quite unique in Trolls. However, if your main opponent enjoys the Flameguard theme from Menoth, you are not going to have much fun and neither is your opponent for the most part. It's always worth investing in two casters who can play completely different from each other (a possible counterpart to Horgle might be a Doomy) so that irrespective of what your opponent has, you've got a game (there's the whole thing about list-pairing, but dunno how far into that you want to go, but I think it's a good thing, even in ultra casual settings). Swamp Troll can work, and if you like it, go for it. It isn't super popular as it suffers from being a little on the weak side, but it does have some neat tricks (it's one of the minority of models in the game that can shoot and clobber in the same turn). Croak Raiders are still pretty darn good, and their tricks go with Horgle's feat pretty well. Unfortunately, these two don't really complement each other much... Also, correction, don't use 'HQ' in reference to a warlock or warcaster!  It's 'lock or 'caster, as the 40K Force Org chart does NOT transition to WMH pretty much at all. Before we get to list building, we'd also need to know if you want to play themes at all... though usually for 35pts, it can get a bit skew-y... So... Q1 - what's your local group of WMH players like/going to be like? Q2 - what faction spread will there be? Q3 - any chance of making it a two list circumstance? Q4 - themes at all? Oh, read this and linked pages for faction/Minion models/themes for more info if you need it: warmachineuniversity.com/mw/index.php/Horgle,_the_Anvil |
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trex
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 3
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Post by trex on Jul 1, 2018 20:59:11 GMT
Hey good sir, thanks for your reply.
Thx for the tips on the casters.
Q1: we are WH players who are looking for a skirmish game. I think we won't invest in it to go over 50 points ever, 35 sounds good. They are casuals like me. Also, based on previous experience I'm...certainly not the weakest player in our club let's say. But games are different of course as you say. Q2: Ehm... one has the circle (wherewolves and such), one is mercenaries, and last one is another warmachine one. I don't know about the others. Nobody plays everblight for sure. Q3: Two lists for me or as a pair? If its for me: rather not. Q4: Whatever is cost effective. I like the beast theme (PoD), if the croacks still fit in that.
So from what I understand I can add these units, but should just consider them seperate parts of the army. Like the swamp troll goas with a melee beast as maybe some flank; and the croacks are on their own, in synergy with some other fire unit? Just wondering what to add... a big slow melee unit for with the swamp troll (so he can pull it in?) and... some other infantery for with the croacks? Or some ranger troll?
No worries, it can go into either (here or Trollbloods sub-forum, that is). Right, first off, WMH/40K are fundamentally very different beasts owing to how short range and largely unrandomised the game tends to be (for the most part, it's attack and damage, in a vague analogue of hit/wounding but no ARM/Inv svs), so in comparison, it's a much more physically compressed game. What you go for, or rather why you go for them, will be based on who you'll be playing against. Will you be joining a group of similarly casual (i.e. you'll stick to 35pts or so?) or an established WMH community? A lot of how some answer will depend on this. That said, there's nothing wrong with sticking to a moderately low points level, but depending on your opposition, you may find yourself on the back foot almost permanently, or your opposition may find themselves in such a situation, neither of which are particularly good outcomes. For example, you like Horgle, and that's fine, he's quite a fun caster and quite unique in Trolls. However, if your main opponent enjoys the Flameguard theme from Menoth, you are not going to have much fun and neither is your opponent for the most part. It's always worth investing in two casters who can play completely different from each other (a possible counterpart to Horgle might be a Doomy) so that irrespective of what your opponent has, you've got a game (there's the whole thing about list-pairing, but dunno how far into that you want to go, but I think it's a good thing, even in ultra casual settings). Swamp Troll can work, and if you like it, go for it. It isn't super popular as it suffers from being a little on the weak side, but it does have some neat tricks (it's one of the minority of models in the game that can shoot and clobber in the same turn). Croak Raiders are still pretty darn good, and their tricks go with Horgle's feat pretty well. Unfortunately, these two don't really complement each other much... Also, correction, don't use 'HQ' in reference to a warlock or warcaster! It's 'lock or 'caster, as the 40K Force Org chart does NOT transition to WMH pretty much at all. Before we get to list building, we'd also need to know if you want to play themes at all... though usually for 35pts, it can get a bit skew-y... So... Q1 - what's your local group of WMH players like/going to be like? Q2 - what faction spread will there be? Q3 - any chance of making it a two list circumstance? Q4 - themes at all? Oh, read this and linked pages for faction/Minion models/themes for more info if you need it: warmachineuniversity.com/mw/index.php/Horgle,_the_Anvil |
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 2, 2018 3:38:04 GMT
*UGH*
*headdesk*
Wrote out a reply, lists and all... lost connection ate my reply, tilted for a sec... T_T
Anyway, gist was:
Get the starter box set (well worth the cost and Ragnor/Horgle to complement each other well IMO), same goes for your buddies, too (though not available for Mercs, curious as to what the last WM faction is, but the diversity is there).
Definite purchases: Kriel Stone Bearer & Stone Scribes (you'll likely only use a minimum unit, but you can use the remaining two grunts to proxy as other stuff); Dire Troll heavy kit (magnetise to get full use out of the three sets of options); Trollkin Runebearer (warlock support you can take for free in virtually every theme, well worth it).
Two 35pt lists: Ragnor in Power of Dhunia, Horgle in Storm of the North with lots of model overlap (one subbed beast, one subbed unit, s'bout it)...
And read up on LOS Warmachine University articles (some aren't quite complete) to get used to WMH terminology as it differs quite a bit from WH40K's (in terms of army composition) and some semantics (magic attacks vs magical attacks... there is a difference!), and, if so inclined, join the Trollblood FB page.
*le sigh*
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 2, 2018 7:52:47 GMT
Get the starter box set (well worth the cost and Ragnor/Horgle to complement each other well IMO), same goes for your buddies, too (though not available for Mercs, curious as to what the last WM faction is, but the diversity is there). Though not all together as a specific box with fancy new plastic miniatures, the Journeyman League document does offer two options for Mercenaries depending on if they want to go Human or Rhulic. If he wants Cephalyx, he's basically out of luck, as their Monstrosity costs and the WJ Points of the Casters do not add up to a zero sum.
Sadly, since they aren't in a single box and not plastic, he has to pay the box and blister prices for the Warcaster and Jacks of the group he chooses. He'll also miss out on having a convenient rulebook and basic token set as well. They aren't a bad starting point in the collection (though, not perfect, but then, most of the battleboxes are hardly near perfect).
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trex
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 3
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Post by trex on Jul 2, 2018 9:48:54 GMT
*UGH* *headdesk* Wrote out a reply, lists and all... lost connection ate my reply, tilted for a sec... T_T Anyway, gist was: Get the starter box set (well worth the cost and Ragnor/Horgle to complement each other well IMO), same goes for your buddies, too (though not available for Mercs, curious as to what the last WM faction is, but the diversity is there). Definite purchases: Kriel Stone Bearer & Stone Scribes (you'll likely only use a minimum unit, but you can use the remaining two grunts to proxy as other stuff); Dire Troll heavy kit (magnetise to get full use out of the three sets of options); Trollkin Runebearer (warlock support you can take for free in virtually every theme, well worth it). Two 35pt lists: Ragnor in Power of Dhunia, Horgle in Storm of the North with lots of model overlap (one subbed beast, one subbed unit, s'bout it)... And read up on LOS Warmachine University articles (some aren't quite complete) to get used to WMH terminology as it differs quite a bit from WH40K's (in terms of army composition) and some semantics (magic attacks vs magical attacks... there is a difference!), and, if so inclined, join the Trollblood FB page. *le sigh*
I'm sorry for your loss of work :/
I will get the starter box indeed; guess I can keep the Axer to go with the swamp troll.
Thank you very much for you reply, it gives me a start.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 2, 2018 10:58:59 GMT
Though not all together as a specific box with fancy new plastic miniatures, the Journeyman League document does offer two options for Mercenaries depending on if they want to go Human or Rhulic. If he wants Cephalyx, he's basically out of luck, as their Monstrosity costs and the WJ Points of the Casters do not add up to a zero sum. Sadly, since they aren't in a single box and not plastic, he has to pay the box and blister prices for the Warcaster and Jacks of the group he chooses. He'll also miss out on having a convenient rulebook and basic token set as well. They aren't a bad starting point in the collection (though, not perfect, but then, most of the battleboxes are hardly near perfect). Eh, I know that, but OP wants to operate on a budget amongst a group of fellow beginners, so they'll go for what suits them best, I suppose. I'm sorry for your loss of work :/ Eh, no worries, shit happens. In all honesty, I had sample lists, but wasn't sure if you'd be OK to go for them as they leant rather heavily on theme and incorporated free solos (effectively, it had three lists as Horgle in Power of Dhunia is usually not practical, but at 35pts perfectly viable and Croaks as Minion inclusion would not have affected the build at all, while giving a little leeway for Horgle's fury management). Ah, one thing that comes to mind. If your group aren't dead set on their factions, it may be worth it to get the two starter box sets (Cygnar vs Cryx and Trolls vs Skorne). These two boxes have massive savings (more so than the individual starter box sets), but generally more so only if you want to expand in the way they suggest (combined arms for the most part, though you mentioned you didn't really want to get that much and Fennblades weren't on your wishlist). Also, Charistoph having mentioned a journeyman league, you could hold an unofficial and small one in your group, just for building and painting targets, but that's up to you. You may want to consult with a more experienced player just to make sure you're interpreting the rules right, but for the most part, interpret each and every word as literally as you can and you'll be fine (just need to get your head around the, from the perspective of other games, weird complexities of hit/damaged/disabled/boxed/destroyed(/removed from play) and other things besides). And before I forget, welcome to the hobby, I'm starting Cryx! |
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 2, 2018 21:41:32 GMT
Though not all together as a specific box with fancy new plastic miniatures, the Journeyman League document does offer two options for Mercenaries depending on if they want to go Human or Rhulic. If he wants Cephalyx, he's basically out of luck, as their Monstrosity costs and the WJ Points of the Casters do not add up to a zero sum. Sadly, since they aren't in a single box and not plastic, he has to pay the box and blister prices for the Warcaster and Jacks of the group he chooses. He'll also miss out on having a convenient rulebook and basic token set as well. They aren't a bad starting point in the collection (though, not perfect, but then, most of the battleboxes are hardly near perfect). Eh, I know that, but OP wants to operate on a budget amongst a group of fellow beginners, so they'll go for what suits them best, I suppose. The OP does, we don't know about the Merc Player. Let's face it, if there is a desire to play a specific faction over another, they'll find a way, choose a different faction, or not play.
Crucible Guard is the next new faction to get their models released. Much like Grymkin, there is an Army Box scheduled, but no Battlebox. The 2017 JML document has a Grymkin starter set different from the Grymkin box, but usually the Army Boxes have been allowed a pass. Add to that and they are within their targeted play point, and that may be a good option for the Merc player, especially since they have some of the Sellsword aesthetic.
If they wanted Pirates or Cephalyx, they may be better to look at Cryx. Unfortunately, Dwarfs are too much their aesthetic to translate well to any other army (in my opinion).
So, options are available.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 3, 2018 4:15:34 GMT
The OP does, we don't know about the Merc Player. Let's face it, if there is a desire to play a specific faction over another, they'll find a way, choose a different faction, or not play. Good point, I got a tad stuck on that point, applying it to his entire group, not just him. Good call. And for a small collection, that box and maybe a second caster can pretty much be it. Nice investment (now, if only the Cryx all-in-one was still available...!). Anyway, bit of a petty point, but what is the JML Grymkin battlegroup? I don't think the starter army has a combination for 0pts (at least for Heretic)... Definitely. I think the game is at the point that there is now pretty much something for everyone, given the steampunk-ish setting. |
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 3, 2018 4:25:40 GMT
Anyway, bit of a petty point, but what is the JML Grymkin battlegroup? I don't think the starter army has a combination for 0pts (at least for Heretic).... has for Grymkin: *The Child *-Cage Rager *-Frightmare *-Gorehound For references, Mercenaries can either go Human with: *Magnus1 the Traitor *-Mangler *-Rover Or Dwarf with: *General Ossrum *-Driller *-Gunner *-Gunner *-Blaster Minions have two as well with the Gators being: *Barnabas *-Wrastler *-Boneswarm *-Bull Snapper And Farrow with: *Helga *-War Hog *-Battle Boar *-Razor Boar *-Razor Boar
Who knows if/when they will come out with a 2018 and add the Crucible Guard to that list.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 3, 2018 5:55:15 GMT
Wait, what?! ... Oh... be good if I read your previous post properly... -_- Thankee kindly. Oh, they're bound to add Crucible Guard, wouldn't really make sense not to. Just a case of finalising the battlegroup, I suppose. ... Wait... I think I read/heard somewhere that they had settled on a provisional battlegroup (the one that's in the starter army box) if people wanted to do a JML with CG on release. Presumably, they'll update the document with the official battlegroup...? |
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 3, 2018 7:50:21 GMT
Presumably. It would make sense. I was more leaving the possibility that it was possible a JML starter wouldn't be written and focused more on the when. The JML update will likely be released around the CG's release.
For JML and Battlebox games, Cephalyx are the truly screwed ones. There are only 2 Casters for them, they are both 29 WJ Points, and the Monstrosities are 10, 11, and 14 points, making it impossible to bring a zero point Battlegroup. Someone going Cephalyx for JML has to go a while before being able to switch to them. That is why I even bothered to present the 'if' for the Crucible Guard.
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It's 'lock or 'caster, as the 40K Force Org chart does NOT transition to WMH pretty much at all.
