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Post by GrumpyBear on Apr 11, 2017 13:30:56 GMT
I think we need to look at Longgunners again in Cygnar, or at least take them off the "Do Not Buy" list.
First of all, I'm gonna assume they are taken with a Snipe caster. For 18 points you get 10 guys with range 18 guns that are 12/12. But what helps make them good is they all have Duel Shot and CRA. So really at the most basic they could be viewed as 10 pow 12, range 18, rat 9 shots. That is not that bad.
Their UA is probably not worth it, but with him at point blank ranges they can get an extra die on attacks, which is kind of bad considering they might have moved which negates duel attacks. He is 4 points for 1 more guy with a gun, and IMHO not worth it.
So how does all this work on the table?
First of all they can all be behind a unit of trenchers who can smoke cloud in a sacrificial way to keep melee off them and disrupt shooting. 18" is a LONG way, and they can still move and put a pow 20 or two pow 15 shots into things.
Second of all, if a Cygnar list takes a lot of Jacks, their table space is probably open, so Long Gunners have space to get into good formation and just police the table. Unlike a lot of shooting units in Cygnar, its perfectly possible the Gunners can be shooting models long before they get into run and engage range.
Third, at range 18, it is totally doable to move 6 and combine CRA. Putting rat 7 or 8 shots 24 inches up the table is brutal for scalping out solos or problem UAs.
So please... give Long Gunners a chance. There are starving Long Gunners in soup lines all over Cygnar. Hire a Long Gunner today.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 11, 2017 14:08:38 GMT
If there really are some sort of trencher long gunners in the gravediggers theme, then sure any sniper caster may like them f they count towards the free points.
The drastic prolem of the game is that thems let you usually play with about 9/13 points more than the opponent, meaning that overcosted units such as long gunners would become balanced and really good stuff like lances suddenly cost only 16 points. It's stupidly good, there is almost always no reason to stick out of themes.
So, if the LGs are avaible in gravedigger (and count towards the free solo/UA points) they will be great. They enjoy the trencher smokewall, and can provide both anti infantry and a somewhat powerful punch against heavy armor. Otherwise they are a no for me, the cost is just too high and I would happily spend snipe on either a powerful ranged jack/colossal or the trenchers themselves, they are great with snipe on theme.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 11, 2017 14:24:25 GMT
The Longgunners that are going to be in the Trencher theme are a brand new 'Trencher Longgunner' unit, not the current longgunners we have.
on the original topic, 18 points is criminally over-costed when you consider max trenchers are 16 points
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 11, 2017 14:24:59 GMT
First, with Snipe casters you can simply use Trencher Infantry+CA instead, who are much more durable and able to kill as much enemy as Long Gunners. Remember that minimum unit of Trencher Infantry costs 10 points, so the full module costs 28 points. But Trencher Infantry with CA costs 21 points, and able to move, get the cover on the plain ground, then shoots the same numbers of shots. Not to mention that they have the better RAT so able to dispatch DEF 13 troopers much easier, and Dual Shot is only works on the paper or needs good skills to match the correct situation.
Actually Long Gunner Infantry CA is very useful and it seems that it is mandatory to add them, but they are not played because we can't see Long Gunner Infantry in ther first place. Give Reposition[5"] once per a game is never be a bad thing... if the unit is not have the victim stat and are not expensive.
If they costs 10/16 and fix their victim stat to 13/12, then they are quite playable, however. But not ever with 11/18 and DEF 12.
Trencher Infantry is not the only replacements. Nyss Hunters have the similar range, same numbers of shots and they are not fragile. Also they can ignore concealment and cover as well. Even without Murdoch they are far better than fragile Long Gunners.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Apr 11, 2017 17:29:16 GMT
Even at 10-16 they're still competing with our trencher units. I say YOLO and drop them to 8/13. Dual shot and CRA may be strong but they are hard shut down by literally every ranged defense ability in the game. They need to be criminally undercoated to make up for this weakness.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Apr 11, 2017 17:50:47 GMT
The long gunners having to stay still to get their points worth is what has kept me away from them. To give them snipe, you are continually paying 1 foc a turn to make them capable of doing the thing they were supposed to do already. They probably need to lose some points, or maybe get an ability like: if this model did not move during its activation, it is immune to blast damage. Or some similar defensive tech. As they are, they are overcosted and fragile in a game of cheap durable robots.
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Post by Octantis on Apr 11, 2017 20:44:10 GMT
They are too easily countered for their point cost. There's too much stealth and too many cloud effects, too much incorporeal, and shield guard in the game that could invalidate your entire unit. In the right situation they are amazing if not game breaking but their amazing slice of the pie is so small they're functionally useless. Maybe just maybe you could use them to back up some sword knights and other melee only stuff to clear our the charge but if your army gets jammed the gunners can't help you.
Once trencher long gunners are released I can only assume that generic Long Gunners will be sent out further into the pasture of obscurity.
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Post by bluebarren on Apr 11, 2017 22:01:22 GMT
I kind of hate that they're making trencher long gunners, just fix normal long gunners and put them in the trencher theme, and maybe make alternate sculpts for the unit that makes them look more trencher-y.
I'm not even gonna try to touch what i think they should do to fix the unit because just by sheer numbers (22xpow10 with cra) they absolutely have the potential to be back-breaking vs a lot of lists but through several rule interactions they've been bogged down to virtually an 18-22 point mkii light artillery piece (can't move and shoot)
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Post by maVoo on Apr 11, 2017 22:31:32 GMT
My main problem with Longgunners is cost, as others have mentioned. They seem hugely overpriced.
There may be situations in which they shine, but when building my lists, 18 points is always better spent elsewhere.
I have a max unit + CA, but I don't see them coming off the bench in the foreseeable future.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 11, 2017 23:16:26 GMT
I know Trencher Mechaniks were mentioned, but where did the reveal of Trencher Long Gunners come from?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 12, 2017 2:01:16 GMT
I kind of hate that they're making trencher long gunners, just fix normal long gunners and put them in the trencher theme, and maybe make alternate sculpts for the unit that makes them look more trencher-y. I'm not even gonna try to touch what i think they should do to fix the unit because just by sheer numbers (22xpow10 with cra) they absolutely have the potential to be back-breaking vs a lot of lists but through several rule interactions they've been bogged down to virtually an 18-22 point mkii light artillery piece (can't move and shoot) Thing is that the lists that they are back breaking against aren't lists that aren't that good. |
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Post by bluebarren on Apr 12, 2017 5:52:30 GMT
Well that depends on the meta, I've found that where I play infantry is starting to find it's way back into the mix, and not just stealth or incorporeal infantry (though those are still present in pretty significant numbers). But generally, yeah, I agree that they aren't THAT great into a lot of the better lists, since they have a strong anti-shooting game of some kind built into them. But 2 pow 21's are great to pump into any jack or beast, especially when they're so far away (snipe and maybe reposition 5" mini feat). Unless jammed they should always have something to do, which is why they have such a great potential.
The biggest issue for them in my mind isn't that stealth crushes them (though a house guard thane-like solo would be welcome), it's that they're so damn immobile. If they had an order that made them speed 3 but could shoot twice they'd possibly see much more table time, that's a 17" threat without snipe, which is pretty respectable considering they'd potentially lose their rat 7 while shooting twice. Idk, food for thought. I just feel like they've gotta either deal with stealth or be somewhat mobile without losing out on their offensive output that you absolutely pay for and half decent opponent will rarely let you utilize.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 12, 2017 5:57:30 GMT
Well that depends on the meta, I've found that where I play infantry is starting to find it's way back into the mix, and not just stealth or incorporeal infantry (though those are still present in pretty significant numbers). But generally, yeah, I agree that they aren't THAT great into a lot of the better lists, since they have a strong anti-shooting game of some kind built into them. But 2 pow 21's are great to pump into any jack or beast, especially when they're so far away (snipe and maybe reposition 5" mini feat). Unless jammed they should always have something to do, which is why they have such a great potential. The biggest issue for them in my mind isn't that stealth crushes them (though a house guard thane-like solo would be welcome), it's that they're so damn immobile. If they had an order that made them speed 3 but could shoot twice they'd possibly see much more table time, that's a 17" threat without snipe, which is pretty respectable considering they'd potentially lose their rat 7 while shooting twice. Idk, food for thought. I just feel like they've gotta either deal with stealth or be somewhat mobile without losing out on their offensive output that you absolutely pay for and half decent opponent will rarely let you utilize. I feel that the concept is simply untenable. Pieces based around being static need a lot of benefits and generally the costs are too high. Long gunners with trenchers might be playable. Just add dig in to long gunners and they become resilient to counter shooting. Shooting that is hard to shoot back is a sudden boost into maybe relevant town. The thing to do is to compare long gunners to winter guard rifles and wonder whether that extra shot is *really* worth what we are paying. |
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 12, 2017 6:27:42 GMT
Generally Dual Shot is the trap. It is not impossible to make use of it, but you must provide them the second turn to shoot, and if you provide enough resource to do then you will found out that you better use the other tools instead. They have not much merit to deliver. Unlike Precursors and both Stormguards, the can cause some damage before dying out. But still their cost is too high for that, and the presence of three unusable units is not the excuse for our another bad unit.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578 
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Post by Juris on Apr 14, 2017 17:01:59 GMT
I think we need to look at Longgunners again in Cygnar, or at least take them off the "Do Not Buy" list. First of all, I'm gonna assume they are taken with a Snipe caster. For 18 points you get 10 guys with range 18 guns that are 12/12. But what helps make them good is they all have Duel Shot and CRA. So really at the most basic they could be viewed as 10 pow 12, range 18, rat 9 shots. That is not that bad. Their UA is probably not worth it, but with him at point blank ranges they can get an extra die on attacks, which is kind of bad considering they might have moved which negates duel attacks. He is 4 points for 1 more guy with a gun, and IMHO not worth it. So how does all this work on the table? First of all they can all be behind a unit of trenchers who can smoke cloud in a sacrificial way to keep melee off them and disrupt shooting. 18" is a LONG way, and they can still move and put a pow 20 or two pow 15 shots into things. Second of all, if a Cygnar list takes a lot of Jacks, their table space is probably open, so Long Gunners have space to get into good formation and just police the table. Unlike a lot of shooting units in Cygnar, its perfectly possible the Gunners can be shooting models long before they get into run and engage range. Third, at range 18, it is totally doable to move 6 and combine CRA. Putting rat 7 or 8 shots 24 inches up the table is brutal for scalping out solos or problem UAs. So please... give Long Gunners a chance. There are starving Long Gunners in soup lines all over Cygnar. Hire a Long Gunner today. So one of 4 warcasters? pCaine, pStryker, Sturgis, Maddox. That is already incredibly limiting. Then consider that for 18 points you can bring many different options which arguably perform better and are more flexible. |
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