bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Jun 26, 2018 18:40:48 GMT
Yeah repo 3 on ghostly/wall of steel unit is extremely strong, and probably worth it by itself.
Defensive strike, it’s not about the mat6/pow12 but more about the 2” reach, which means taking the defensive strike is unavoidable.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 27, 2018 6:29:36 GMT
Does he need to bring a damage buff? Dark Host has no shortage of Dark Shroud and the most popular Team Banes casters all have at least something, even if only on a feat turn. Also, the Knights are more tank than DPS, and no, you don't want them crowding the Warriors. Wasn't defining their respective roles one of the bones picked in the CID? Played against Zaadesh 2 recently? Defensive Strike is useful enough to be a worthy mini-feat. That and Reposition are very strong on a screen that doesn't care about terrain. The Knights can now mini-feat, charge the enemy front line, and then either dig deeper or fall back to screen and/or take a zone, as needed. From playing Champs with Grissel 2, I can tell you that Reposition is amazing in combination with abilities like Defensive Line and Wall of Steel because the unit can charge in wherever they need to, then Repo back into B2B. You might just have to see this in action to fully appreciate it. Against other melee infantry, especially with reach, you'll probably kill at least a couple of them as they charge in. Against jacks, you can probably get at least two hits on each one. Either way, Defensive Strike helps a bit with attrition. I agree with everything you just said except the analogy with Zaadesh. Zaadesh's feat is so good because it works on tortoises that have a POW 18 attack with auto-knockdown or on heavies, that can actually hurt something. MAT 6 (7 if Tartarus is alive), POW 12 (14 if opponent is somehow in Dark Shroud) only deals with DEF 12-13 ARM 16-17 models reliably) I'm not saying it's completely useless, but it's very corner case and not the main draw of the model.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 27, 2018 12:33:56 GMT
Does he need to bring a damage buff? Dark Host has no shortage of Dark Shroud and the most popular Team Banes casters all have at least something, even if only on a feat turn. Also, the Knights are more tank than DPS, and no, you don't want them crowding the Warriors. Wasn't defining their respective roles one of the bones picked in the CID? Played against Zaadesh 2 recently? Defensive Strike is useful enough to be a worthy mini-feat. That and Reposition are very strong on a screen that doesn't care about terrain. The Knights can now mini-feat, charge the enemy front line, and then either dig deeper or fall back to screen and/or take a zone, as needed. From playing Champs with Grissel 2, I can tell you that Reposition is amazing in combination with abilities like Defensive Line and Wall of Steel because the unit can charge in wherever they need to, then Repo back into B2B. You might just have to see this in action to fully appreciate it. Against other melee infantry, especially with reach, you'll probably kill at least a couple of them as they charge in. Against jacks, you can probably get at least two hits on each one. Either way, Defensive Strike helps a bit with attrition. I agree with everything you just said except the analogy with Zaadesh. Zaadesh's feat is so good because it works on tortoises that have a POW 18 attack with auto-knockdown or on heavies, that can actually hurt something. MAT 6 (7 if Tartarus is alive), POW 12 (14 if opponent is somehow in Dark Shroud) only deals with DEF 12-13 ARM 16-17 models reliably) I'm not saying it's completely useless, but it's very corner case and not the main draw of the model. Sure, fair enough. You'd have to give them Scything Touch or something to make it a credible threat to heavy jacks or cav at all, but there's still a lot of infantry in the meta right now.
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Post by darkshroud on Jul 4, 2018 4:26:47 GMT
Sure, fair enough. You'd have to give them Scything Touch or something to make it a credible threat to heavy jacks or cav at all, but there's still a lot of infantry in the meta right now. Probably bc theme machine and them all including, take 20 pts and get a free dude. So people spam units to get the 2 or 3 free dudes. Pp@mk3drop: but warjacks! Pplater: ...wait... Tinfoil Probably switched back to units bc they cost more than jacks? Monetary wise. /tinfoil
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 4, 2018 22:53:10 GMT
Defensive Strike mini feat. So powerful on models with 6 mat 12 pow Too bad the faction doesn't have any spells or abilities that debuff def or arm
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 5, 2018 5:51:55 GMT
Defensive Strike mini feat. So powerful on models with 6 mat 12 pow Too bad the faction doesn't have any spells or abilities that debuff def or arm Those are offensive, while Defensive Strike is, well, defensive. If your opponent runs his debuffed unit into the arms of that mini-feat, he deserves to lose everything. But, because it's a mini-feat, they can try to wait it out, or send something else in that can survive. Turns after that, it won't be a problem anymore. It can be a useful deterrent, but usually when Cryx debuffs something, it's to murder it, not to wait and hope it comes running into your arms.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 5, 2018 6:54:10 GMT
The entire unit is defensive.
Things like scything touch exist too. I'm just saying being salty about pow 12 in a faction that doles out -2-5 armor with relative ease is kind of a bad hill to die on.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 5, 2018 7:04:08 GMT
Those are offensive, while Defensive Strike is, well, defensive. If your opponent runs his debuffed unit into the arms of that mini-feat, he deserves to lose everything. But, because it's a mini-feat, they can try to wait it out, or send something else in that can survive. Turns after that, it won't be a problem anymore. It can be a useful deterrent, but usually when Cryx debuffs something, it's to murder it, not to wait and hope it comes running into your arms. True, but debuffs are usually handed over to new targets after the previous target was mulched. An appropriately debuffed target plus mini-feated Bane Knights causes your opponent a headache if nothing else. They send in the target, yes, they'll get nicely mulched. They don't send in the target they have two things they need to think about: having someone else deal with the Knights; getting the debuffed element out the way and try to make it be otherwise productive. Well done, at best, the target dies during their controlling player's turn, at middling, they're sent out of position for something else in your army to clobber next turn, at worst, the Knights get charged by something which is probably not best placed to deal with the unit as a whole, so they'll still be relevant going into the rest of the game. Purely hypothetical but perfectly plausible, even if debuff + mini-feat yields no material gain, it still brings scenario and positional advantage by shutting down a localised section of the board, context sensitive, naturally.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jul 5, 2018 20:41:21 GMT
Sure, fair enough. You'd have to give them Scything Touch or something to make it a credible threat to heavy jacks or cav at all, but there's still a lot of infantry in the meta right now. Probably bc theme machine and them all including, take 20 pts and get a free dude. So people spam units to get the 2 or 3 free dudes. Pp@mk3drop: but warjacks! Pplater: ...wait... Tinfoil Probably switched back to units bc they cost more than jacks? Monetary wise. /tinfoil I mean, I have been using more 'jacks more than I ever did in Mk.II. I barely took any, one MAYBE two with my Khador, my old Cryx army I would run just Deathjack and an arc node or two. My current Khador army list has 5 warjacks, same with my Cryx. Those number blow my mind. I wonder if they were just getting tired of watching a bunch of "mangled metal" type of matches that don't fit their vision of what the battlefields of the Iron Kingdoms look like.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Jul 6, 2018 12:54:43 GMT
I am seriously considering buying a unit of Bane Knights after seeing this new attachment, even though it would make my painting backlog even worse. I'm currently running a min unit and a max unit of Bane Warriors under eGaspy, Darragh Wrathe, and a Wraith Engine. By trading out the min unit for some Knights, I'm giving up a lot of damage potential. BUT what I'm getting is an obnoxiously difficult to remove shield wall that can easily block off an entire section of the board. Having a proper leader for them as a free attachment may be just the bump I need to make the trade.
I don't view the mini-feat as a waste of anything, even though it's a defensive ability in an otherwise heavily offensive faction and theme. If all it does it gain me a turn on one objective while my opponent figures out how to deal with it or wait it out... I consider that a win. 1 turn is an enormous amount of time in this game, when things could easily end in only 3 or 4 rounds.
Any solo or infantry that try to remove them are in for a bad day. This leaves warjacks/warbeasts, feats, or spell spam to remove them. That's worth the investment, as those are expensive/painful models no longer harassing my more expensive (and arguably important) Warriors, solos, and warcaster. Now I'm not saying the knights are perfect or the new model is well balanced. Just that it fills a niche I'm happy to have, and that defensive stalling feats CAN be worth the investment.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 6, 2018 13:42:51 GMT
Taking them with Skarre 3 might be quite nice. With Wall of Steel, Unhallowed and Decel they are arm 22 against ranged. Then def 14 against charges, and if they have Draconic Blessing their Defensive Strikes go up to pow 14.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 6, 2018 15:54:19 GMT
How is a defensive strike minifeat not good?
It makes them un-touchable for melee infantry for a turn
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 6, 2018 16:59:14 GMT
I gotta say with that minifeat I'll get the CA in a heartbeat.
The ability to have my scenario-holding unit run into position and actually force enemies to not attack for a turn? pure freaking gold.
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