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Post by Trollock on Feb 16, 2019 11:53:39 GMT
Here comes the next report from the mini SR event last week! Baldur 1 vs Barnabus 2
Lists Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host
[Baldur 1] Baldur the Stonecleaver [+31] - Ghetorix [19] - Warpwolf Stalker [17] Bloodweaver Night Witch [4] Lord of the Feast [0(6)] Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] BrĂghid & Caul [7] Tharn Bloodtrackers (max) [15] - Nuala the Huntress [4] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [0(5)] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [5]
Minion Army - 71 / 75 points [Theme] Will Work for Food
[Barnabas 2] Barnabas, Lord of Blood [+23] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Blind Walker [10] - Boneswarm [7] - Bull Snapper [5] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [0(4)] Dahlia Hallyr [17] Gatorman Witch Doctor [0(4)] Kwaak Slickspine & Gub, Croak Sorcerers [4] Wrong Eye [17] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] Farrow Bone Grinders (min) [5] Farrow Valkyries [8]
I have missed something in his list, but i cant figure out what... Deployment I get to go first and deploy centrally. I plan to send Ghetorix to the west zone and hold it down. He deploys in a tiny brick in the middle. I identify that he has given up on the east zone and i change gears. I deploy B&C in the middle (to get corpses) and bloodtrackers to the west (to contest the zone there) and we are off to the races!
Circle T1 I clump up the trackers in the west zone, daring him to advance in to them. They have Preyed Skarrath. B&C get corpses and then run east full speed. Ravagers move up centrally and threaten that zone. Ghetorix runs to the wall and Pureblood runs west a bit (no idea why in retrospect...). Baldur gets Stoneskin on the painted Ravagers and then charges up to cover as much as possible on later turns. LotF hangs back by the cauldron as he hasnt gotten his tokens yet. The night witch stays behind the ravagers so it can poke them if they get rebuked.
Minion T1 If the match up wasnt bad enough (im not sure it is) and going second is not bad enough, his moves here are certainly bad enough hehe (sorry Jonas, but that was not a brilliant move). He bunkers up around Wrong eye and Maelok in an immortal brick that is WAY too far back. He also tries to hide with the Bone Grinders, making it pretty impossible to even contest the east zone.
Circle T2 Im now in full scenario mode. Blood trackers run and fan out outside threat of Skarath. Ghetorix and Pureblood loch down the zone to the west. Ravagers move up a bit to threaten the entire middle zone. They stay just outside walk and punch range of Barnabus. I put down a forest in front of them to absolutely completely make his life miserable. B&C hides in the forest to the east, ready to score the zone. The champ walks up and shoots a bone grinder to deny him contesting models for future turns, but it toughs, and i repo up on the side.
Minions T2 He decides to stick with the brick plan. The blind walker tramples up and he arcs Blood Rain on the two ravagers nearest. They survive and vengeance is triggered. He bricks up around Barnabus and WE and he is camping a bit with Barny. He has Swarm, Execration and Star crossed up. As you can see, he completely abandons the east, so i score 1-0 on his turn.
Circle T3 Barnabus is far forward and i can get some serious stuff in to him. Im not gonna play that game though. Assassination could give him a way back in to the game, and i dont like that at all! I have the Ravagers kill the objective and Punch the Blind Walker a bit. It has Enliven up and it walks up to engage Ghetorix. I shoot it with Pureblood and punch it with LotF but it actually survives still. Baldur walks to the south east part of the central zone, outside threat of Barnabus and puts up a forest on the ravagers. He then feats on all the important stuff. Ghetorix puts up SG and walks out of melee with the BW to be outside threat ranges from Barnabus. The free strike misses to boot. To add insult to injury the bloodtrackers walk up to shoot. I think i have 5 shots at Skarath needing Star crossed 8s... I stick 4 of them and kill im... Fair and balanced... This has no effect on the game, but certainly on my opponents morale. B&C run forward a bit to threaten the center.
I score the zone and with the killed objective its 3-0
The end He cant contest the east zone, and he can definitely not score any points. I score 1 more on his turn and then one more on my turn no matter what he does.
Post Game Thoughts This is what we call "playing in the sprinkler". Even though the game was not very fun, seeing a list work on basically every level is a nice feeling. Barnabus' brick is certainly tough to crack, especially for living models but it pays the price by being very slow, and on such a wide scenario that is simply not working, especially if you go second. My opponent did not identify the crisis fast enough, or he could at least have contested on T2 and that buys him more time to get to grips with me. It would also have helped him to go first, but you cant really change that. The only way it worked so well though is probably that the Ravagers can boost to hit their charge attack. They need a star crossed 8 to hit a bone swarm, but if you boost, that is reasonably easy. "normal" hard hitting infantry will not fare so well id think.
Still have one more report from this event, but i wont write that just now.
cya later /T
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Post by Trollock on Feb 23, 2019 20:53:05 GMT
Mohsar vs Abby 1This was the last game of the mini tournament i organized a couple of weeks ago. Since then i have done some pirate playtesting, but on Wednesday ill be back to circle again! Lists I had built this list to be a wacky assassination list with all of the tricks. I am also limited by the models i own, so it is probably not ideal. Deployment etcI chose to go first as the scenario is slow and i do not think i can blitz it. Getting more boardspace with my ranged list against his super fast melee list will be nice too. I deploy my caster in the middle with Feral and Gnarlhorn around him. The Blood pack start in the middle too. Ravagers go toward my zone while Wolves go to the west. I place the Argus to go towards my zone to maybe score it in the future. He places the throne to go in to his zone and the flying beasts around his caster in the middle. I AD the bloodtrackers across from the throne (questionable) and LotF in the middle. The Gallows grove go west to perhaps arc CoS against the throne. Bloodtrackers Prey the throne. Circle T1The bloodtrackers get Mirrage and then run up to just outside 14" of the throne (as i thought it could be slip streamed, but SS has a non-huge base clause it seems). Wolfs do similar things. I push west with the Blood pack and Gnarlhorn as well. I run up the Argus to within 21" (but outside 19") of the Angelius. I figured it would be a bad move for him to slip stream and shoot rather than run. The Ravagers go full steam ahead too. The Feral and LotF hide behind a pillar in the middle. Legion T1He does not agree with my assessment that it is a misstake to shoot the dog, and he slip streams both the Angelius and Seraph (who places 2" with apparition too...) He shoots it and almost kills it! that is actually not at all good for me, as my assassination is very dependent on the animus. On the west he runs with the throne and then jams with the Angel in to the bloodtrackers. Circle T2I mirrage the bloodtrackers so that all mut one are no longer engaged. Mohsar gets puppet strings and arcs CoS against the angelius through the Gallows grove. i need a boosted 10 with a reroll and get it. I then back out and hide behind a pillar. One Tracker takes a free strike from the angel and then i mini feat and switch prey over to it and kill it and put some damage in to the throne as well. I repo out to form a path for the goat. The Blood pack also shoot the throne and i think it is at about half health (i really should have cast CoS against that instead of the angel). I measure the range to the Gnarlhorn, and its just outside 9". It cant reach the Throne and that is not good. It was not until later in the evening i remembered that the Gnarlhorn actually threatens 10"... (Edit: no it doesnt! đŸ˜£) That would have made things a lot easier. Three boosted damage rolls would most likely have finished off the Throne, but now it lives instead. Right, the Wolf Riders snuck up behind it (i know they dont have backstab) and shot it a bit. Then one Repos in melee and the others hang back behind it.
On the east i can get 3 charges on the Angelius (2 will have the wall in the way though) and one on the Seraph. I cant remember who much damage i do, but neither beast is dead at least. I send in the Argus in to the zone to threaten scoring. The Feral hide behind the wall in the middle to counter punch. LotF hangs back blocking LoS to Mohsar.
Legion T2
This is really painful... He feats this turn needless to say and He slipstreams Proteus in to the forest (right... he can do that). Abby goes in to my square zone and kills a Ravager i think. Then he clears off all my ravagers with his beasts and my objective too. The Throne does a LOT of work, even though it was in melee with a wolf rider (-1 to hit on everything). Liiking at it now, the Goat could have counter slammed the Hellion too i think, but i didnt do it. To add insult to injury the Neraph can actually reach my Feral over the wall and does significant damage to it.
He scores 2 by killing my objective and scoring my zone.
Circle T3 Going in to the match i felt pretty good. I can shoot really hard, i have a feat that actually works very well against him and im playing frigging Tharn. Now it looks less awesome... I will feat this turn at least, and i get CoS on to the throne and i kill it with shooting. I do not have the oomph left to kill the objective though so no scoring for me. LotF goes in against proteus and Grievously wounds both him and the angel, crippling something on proteus at least. I decide NOT to buy attacks but camp the 3 tokens instead. The plan is for him to frenzy next turn and for LotF to be hard to kill. The annoying thing is that he killed my Argus last turn. Had that been alive i think i just kill him this turn, but now my assassination is basically off the table
The Feral kills the Neraph. With careful placement i have made sure that the Angel will frenzy on a Blood pack instead of on the Feral, and if he does not frenzy im camping enough to be pretty safe. Wolf Riders throw some spears on the back lines.
Still 2-0 to Legion
Legion T3 The fun times continue... I think his Forsaken kills my Feral with a blight bomb thing. he also killed the Grove and a Bloodtracker. Angel does not frenzy and actually kills my goat instead i think. Something killed it at least. Proteus frenzied on his spell martyr though and he was forced to take a free strike from LotF and is WAY out of position. He kills LotF with Abby though i think. He scores the east zone again.
3-0 to Legion
Circle T4 Blood Trackers throw at his objective and between them, the Blood Pack and the Pot i kill his objective and Angel (who was CoSed by Mohsar before he teleported in to his zone). Boosting attack and damage in melee with corpses was very key here. The wolf riders go around the back and throw more spears and repo so one is contesting the east zone.
3-2 to Legion
Endgame On his turn he kills both wolfriders and Proteus runs to the middle zone. He has left me no assassination, im way behind on attrition and i can no longer contest scenario. He will win on either clock or scenario, and that is if i can keep Mohsar safe from assassination till then, so we call it there.
Post Game I think this is my game to lose, and i sure did! Giving away the Argus was very stupid. It was much more important than i had planned on, because without it, he doesnt have to fear the assassination and that is basically all my list was built to do. The Wolf Riders for example were squeezed in there JUST because they can walk 9, jump 5 and then repo 5 to be within 2" of a caster so Moshar can port in there, Bark, CoS and poke them and create a pillar for LotF to charge if needed so he can get in there and wreck face followed by what ever shooting i can muster.
Missing the charge for the goat was obviously super key, because if the Throne doesnt kill the world on that side, i can still win on attrition. I hadnt planned for the goat to be able to charge on T2, but he was actually in range and i saw the opportunity when it came up. I just didnt read my card to see he was SPD 6 lol.
I think my play with LotF was pretty cute. Saving the corpses to be tougher to kill rather than buying attacks. I think it would have been even better to buy the attacks on the Angelius though, as that would have crippled it most likely, hopefully prevented it from doing work the next turn. LotF went down anyway even though it took a few fury from Abby.
The Key moment of this game though was probably me sending in the Ravagers so that ALL of them were in threat of Proteus. If a couple of them survive he will have a much harder time winning that side. Two Ravagers together with LotF jumping in would have killed that angel on T3 for example, and could potentially have contested the east zone once more, making scenario winnable.
Lots of things could have been done differently for sure. Proteus was SUPER scary for tharn though (under Abby) due to huge reach and Grievous wounds. Beware of him if you face him!
Next game will be on Wednesday. My tharn Journey continues and it will be WW vs Makeda 3 with light beasts. I have no idea how that will/should work out. Mass Grievous wounds sounds bad for me, but being able to boost to hit his high DEF lights could be good. Strangle hold for Makeda could also be key.
Cya then! /T
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Post by redcathal on Feb 25, 2019 10:56:15 GMT
The Gnarlhorn is speed 5 so don't beat yourself up about it, although the Shadowhorn is 6 if that's where the confusion is coming from, sounds like an interesting game though
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Post by Trollock on Feb 25, 2019 18:04:47 GMT
The Gnarlhorn is speed 5 so don't beat yourself up about it, although the Shadowhorn is 6 if that's where the confusion is coming from, sounds like an interesting game though Hahaha. So i dont suck? Or i suck even more? I guess if i were a better player i would have placed the thing to be in threat range if he went in. I didnt make a concious desicion there so i dont diserve to kill it hehe. I definitely should have put CoS on the throne rather than the angelius though. Angelii go down really fast evennif it is only POW 11 weaponmasters đŸ¤”
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Post by Trollock on Feb 27, 2019 13:06:39 GMT
So my DH journey is almost at an end. I still have a couple of casters left, but i think the initial hypothesis wolds. DH is strong enough to be played with almost any caster and you will have a list that is decent at the very least, and very good in many many cases. Once im done with all casters ill start thinking about focusing on a few of them, and perhaps even start to construct actual tournament pairings to practice. So far, the short list of casters that i am interested in focusing on is: Baldur 1 DH, but ill probably try him in other themes for fun too. I think he REALLY wants the well though. Baldur 2
I think the DH list i played was super fun, and shockingly annoying for my opponents. Ill probably try him in other themes too for fun. GrayleHe was seriously good AND fun in DH. Im really looking forward to playing him, especially now when the blood shaman is live! (Not Iona)This might be my SUSS speaking, but i probably wont focus on her at all. I think the meta is doing all it can to solve for her, and i think it is only a matter of time before it either succeeds or she gets nerfed. Id rather have a bit of dark horse factor going for me in an event. Like Grayle. Every one thinks LotF is broken as balls, but very few ppl have gotten Grayles LotF in the face and lost a wraith engine or something. One might be prepared for LotF and still get caught out by Grayle. Every one will be as prepared as possible for Iona... (Kromac 1/2)Both of these were VERY fun to play in DH, but it is possible they will play second fiddle to Baldur or Grayle for me. Both Kromacs felt a bit more gimmicy than good and there are plenty of good things to play! Krueger 2He is what brought me in to circle and he is REALLY good, especially now when i can pair him with something that cracks ARM without relying on beasts to do so. In the old Krueger/Bradigus or Krueger/Kaya3 pair i never wanted to play the beast heavy list. Now i could play like Krueger in Bones and pair with Baldur 1 in DH and have two lists that i actually want to play (M, M & M)Mohsar and both Morvahnas were all fun (ok, havent actually played Morv2 yet), but i think they are in the same category as the Kromacs. If i get bored with the other casters i know where to look! WurmwoodIll play him for the first time tonight, but i have no doubt that it will be frustrating and ill be eager to learn how to do it properly. On paper he looks fine in both BoO and DH. I guess it depends on what you pair him with. So, wanna help me build some pairs? Im looking for a solid pair, but im willing to sacrifice SOME competitiveness to stick to the casters i like. I guess my problem is that in the few games i played with each caster it was often not super obvious what were the bad match ups, so any input would be appreciated! Lets try to stick to the above mentioned casters and see if it is reasonable. Baldur 1 + XXXBaldur seemed rock solid (hehe) and a very all round list, but id say that He does not really want to face a melee army that has mass non-pathfinder terrain mitigation such as Incorp or flight or ghostly. Super shooty armies that rely on sprays would also probably be bad. When i line it up like that, he would want a partner to cover Skorne immortals, Menoth Judicators, Ossrum with spraybunnies and CG. Oh, and Possibly Banes and flying Legion beasts too, though they seem more managable in general. Checking my lists here it is pretty hard. B2 is no good. Grayle could perhaps present a dangerous enough assassination to play in to most things even if it is a bad match up. Krueger 2 seems all wrong. Is WW perhaps the best fit? I guess its WW in BoO then and i try to play a shooty control game? Going to the "bench" of secondary casters we have Kromac 1 might be able to fight Immortals. Bestial is probably a pretty big deal, but vengeance messes with any hit and run strategy. Kromac 2 seems bad in to many many things (but soo fun when he murders the world!) Mohsar also has the crazy assassination to be able to at least play in to anything. His shooty style doesnt do well in to Judicators though. Morv1 could perhaps play the long game by simply bringing back he guys and Mortality is sweet in to most things. Morv2 seems like a worse Morv1 for the most part... So, WW in BoO or Mohsar in DH i guess? Gotta go now. Will continue later on!
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Post by Trollock on Feb 28, 2019 7:54:16 GMT
Alright! lets continue.
Baldur 2 + Wurmwood Now, here we are talking about Baldur 2 in DH(!). The BoO variant seems WAY more boring and the double Storm Raptor lists i have seen look more fun, but i wont be buying two storm raptors. I might proxy the list at some point though...
For those who didnt read my previous reports with Baldur 2 DH, the list is super skewy and i think it was really fun to watch the opponent squirm! Basically, you play Ghetorix and Loki. You put roots on both and a wall in front and then you basically laugh as the opponent tries to kill them. You can still have 60 points of Tharn stuff if you want, and even unsupported, 60 points of tharn stuff can do work. The BG is so incredibly hard to kill though that it is hardly funny. Ghetorix was charged by a loaded Kraken who did... 1 point of damage in one of my games. This isnt really strange either. effective DEF 16 (18 against shooting) ARM 22 PLUS rapid healing and Spiny Growth makes for some serious numbers. you CAN mitigate some of it but most lists can not mitigate enough of it to get the job done quickly. I think this makes for an excellent tournament list in that it is unusual, and if you havent thought about the math you can easily overestimate how much damage you can do and commit too early. In MK2 my favorite list was very similar but in trolls. You had Madrak 1 with Mulg and an EBDT behind a wall being 15/23 and 16/22 respectively. Many ppl tried to break that fortress and failed, and then Madrak feated and Mulg ate the whole army.
So what does the list not want to see? CG with a vulcan and sprays sounds bad initially, but im not sure. Ghetorix up front with Loki behind to SG the anti healing gun could be enough. Hitting DEF 18 for the vulcan is hard, especially with a shield guard. A lucky scatter could do it but will they commit to that plan? Even if they do hit the anti healing, you are sill high DEF and ARM. I dont know. Maybe Syvestro manages to kill it.
Mass infantry seems largely fine. They cant fit enough dudes around Ghetorix/Loki with the wall to bring down either, and things like Crevasse on the following turn could really mess things up for them. Also i have 14 Ravagers who like infantry...
Mass shooting seems fairly ineffective. ARM 22 is a problem and DEF 18 is also a problem. Super high POW sprays could do some work but im not sure it is enough. The Judicator is POW 15 sprays, right? Lets assume he rolls a 13 on boosted damage cause of the extra die, thats 28, so 6 damage, and i heal 2 oh ghetorix. Also, he is now in threat range of Ghetorix. Seems he wont one round me at least. Harbinger is always a pain, so LotF and Gallows groves should be included to mitigate the martyrdom i guess.
Makeda 3 could be an issue... especially in warhost. She brings grievous wounds and a +2/+2 buff. She herself can probably kill one of the heavies and possibly be hard to kill enough to survive the other heavy and Baldur to the face? Seems optimistic with the -3 DEF from Baldur.
Lets say i want to screw over syvestro then with my offlist. WW in BoO does that i hear. Krueger 2 BoO could perhaps do it? dont know... The mega stealth thing makes Krueger sad as not even he can reliably get to Syvestro then... I do not think any of the other alternatives really messes with CG, so i guess it will have to be Baldur 2 DH and WW BoO!
EDIT: I built a couple of lists that ill probably try out soon. I think the main idea is that WW plays against CG and Menoth and Baldur handles any thing else. No idea if that works hehe.
Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host
[Baldur 2] Baldur the Stonesoul [+30] - Ghetorix [19] - Gorax Rager [7] - Loki [19] - Tharn Blood Shaman [4] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] BrĂghid & Caul [7] Tharn Bloodweavers [8] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [0(5)] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [0(5)] Well of Orboros [10]
I added a Gorax to the battle group, because that allowed me to have a really nasty damage potential on Ghetorix that needed to be respected even if i never use it. It also makes it easier on The Pit for example, to have a light that can run and score a zone. Then i decided against going for exactly 60 points of Tharn, and decided to add the Well for flexibility with my solos. Im not at all sure this is a good move but ill try it for sure. Bringing in a Blackclad to threaten further, a Night Witch for GW or dispel or plain infantry hate, or a White mane to allow the ravagers to fight high DEF better all seem like good options. Or just a gallows grove if im up against mass healing stuff. I could accept the alpha, and then place a gallows grove to threaten 13" with no healing from the well.
Double ravagers seemed obvious as they take the feat pretty well and are just plain good. The Bloodweavers are there to stop my brick from being enveloped by a fast list. I may never actually place them on the table and they could still be VERY effective when playing a brick. B&C are not very well supported, but this gives me access to two shield guards if some one tries to shoot GW at ghetorix, or shoot away his Spiny. They will probably hang back and hopefully get 2 corpses from the well before they have to commit, and they kill many things just fine with no caster support.
The list has very few solos to score, and that may prove a problem, but im unlikely to score many elements at once. Ill probably have to play a slow grindy game scoring only a point or two each round until the opposing force is gone.
EDIT 2: Added the below list that i can play until the Well is released...
Circle Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Devourer's Host
[Baldur 2] Baldur the Stonesoul [+30]
- Ghetorix [19]
- Gorax Rager [7]
- Loki [19]
- Tharn Blood Shaman [4]
Bloodweaver Night Witch [4]
Tharn Ravager Shaman [4]
Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)]
Tharn Ravagers (max) [15]
- Tharn Ravager Chieftain [0(5)]
Tharn Ravagers (max) [15]
- Tharn Ravager Chieftain [0(5)]
Tharn Wolf Riders (max) [18]
Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Bones of Orboros
[Wurmwood 1] Wurmwood, Tree of Fate [+27] - Wold Guardian [16] - Wold Guardian [16] - Woldwarden [14] - Woldwarden [14] - Woldwyrd [9] - Woldwyrd [9] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)] Gallows Grove [0(2)] Gallows Grove [2] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5] Shifting Stones [3] Shifting Stones [3] Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2]
This list is not super innovative BUT i did bend over backwards to get Lanyssa in there. She seems SUPER fun on the feat turn and i simply had to try that! I had to give up some cool stuff to get there and it might not be worth it, but it could be glorious! Double Groves are there to mess with Martyrdom, and having all these "extra" things forced me to change the BG and drop some other options and it might be sub par. I guess it depends on how well the Baldur list can handle the field, allowing WW to only be played in few and specific match ups.
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Post by Trollock on Feb 28, 2019 9:58:51 GMT
Grayle + XXXDuring my journey with DH i encountered two surprises. The first one was that it seems to work with basically any one, at least at a "im gonna play this list because i like it"-kind of way. The really Bad casters such as Kaya 1 actually felt pretty OK in DH and i did not expect the theme to be that strong (this was right after release mind you. now no one is surprised that tharn are good lol). The second one was Grayle. Initially, i actually considered skipping him cause he did almost nothing for the tharn and because he seemed bland. BOY were i wrong!? Storm Rager seemed like a gimmick as it only affects one dude, and how powerful could one dude be? This was back when i hadnt even tried LotF cause he didnt seem very strong to me. Again, i was wrong to say the least . I have now played Grayle 5-10 times and he is both fun and good imo. I definitely want to keep playing him, so now i just need to find a decent partner for him. ARM cracking is a bit of a problem for him, at least on paper, but you do need to bring some serious ARM to actually be a problem. It is possible, but i have not really faced that much ARM yet. Shooting is also a bit of a weak point, but the feat lets you have a game in to many things. The super nasty sprays still give him fits, and serious gunlines can output enough damage to stifle him, but a more balanced list is totally within his ability to handle. Immortals seem totally playable at a glance at least as a Night Witch with Storm Rager and DI can really tear them up. Im not expecting her to get to kill all of the immortals forever, but she can force positioning, and even if the regular Ravagers cant pack man against them, they still pose a threat killing 1-2 guys each. So i guess it comes back to playing against Vulcan/Judicators that is something i do not want to do. WW in BoO seems to be the play there, though im not sure that Grayle is super bad in to that. It would be great getting some practice against it, but my local meta is very small now and i will only run in to them in tournaments In the "bottom of the barrel" event i played around christmas i had Grayle and Krueger 1. I think K1 is probably a pretty good pair, but im not super interested in playing him. Also, the Judicator gets blessed in Exemplar theme, right? Seems sub optimal. I could probably play K2 and have two pretty generalist lists that asks vastly different questions, and then try to dodge the absolute worst match ups. Who knows? To win an event one needs both skill AND luck, right? So i guess WW BoO is the most likely candidate here again. Is he perhaps the best pair to tharn in general? We shall see...
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Post by Trollock on Feb 28, 2019 12:17:49 GMT
Krueger 2 + XXX I guess this depends heavily on if i play him in BoO or DH. When i started circle last year i wanted to play the standard K2 BoO list and i still like that one as it has a lot of flexibility and TK is the most fun spell in the game! If we start there, his bad match ups were traditionally heavy ARM on huge bases, since he cant really control them or kill them. Now we also have Skorne with immortals that just super win against K2. The traditional pair was an ARM cracking beast brick with Bradigus or Kaya 3 (possibly Una 2) but the point was that you had to use two beast bricks and that is generally sub optimal. The hope was that you should be able to build a Tharn list that cracks ARM for you but with infantry rather than with beasts. I guess the problem with the current meta might be that tharn arent great in to Vulcan or Judicator, and neither is K2. Tharn arent super good in to immortals either, at least they are less so than they are against other infantry.
WW pops up again as an option against the huge bases, but BoO seems weak against immortals. Perhaps WW in DH can still work against the huge bases but have a much better match up against Skorne? I played WW DH in to Makeda 3 warhost yesterday and that wasnt super good, but perhaps it is the best i can do, at least when looking at my list of casters?
If i play K2 in DH though, what happens then? I think the Skorne match up becomes much better, if still not great. Same for ARM spam. It is by no means great, but unless you play huge bases i can control the ARM pretty well and Ravagers still do work against most things. The Judicator/Vulcan match up is still bad though, so WW in BoO to round things out? Seems i keep coming back to the same thing. Perhaps im over estimating the Judicator/Vulcan, especially since there is likely not more than one of those at any tournament i can attend, and none at my local club...
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Post by Trollock on Mar 1, 2019 9:22:23 GMT
I updated the Baldur 2 post above with actual lists
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Post by Trollock on Mar 2, 2019 20:07:13 GMT
Wurmwood vs Makeda 3 I finally managed to play a game with WW after all this time. I have always assumed that he would be a fun caster, and i was not dissapointed. Lots and LOTS of practice is needed to make this guy work properly, and ill probably put in some time with him, though most likely in the BoO theme. This game was not only the first WW game for me, but also the first Makeda game for my opponent so we made several mistakes with the rules.
Lists
I chose not to bring the corpse package this game, and went with the Bone Grinders instead. Im not super convinced that is the right play though. I made a list with 4 units of medium bases but then i went back and cut down to get shifting stones and bone grinders, and i switched the Blood pack for Blood trackers as i figured they could provide some souls for WW. I went with the wild Argus to have the possibility of the bark assassination, but i think that is not so good unless i do play blood pack as the blood trackers often have a hard time reaching AND seeing the enemy caster. Lots of things can definitely be changed with my list.
Deployment n' stuff I lost the roll and went second. I chose this side because i thought the forest would be more relevant to park WW in. It might have been good to do it the other way though as the obstruction would have forced him to split up his army and i do not think he wants that. He deploys Molik on the west flank and all the lights in the middle. Gladiator is more to the east with Zadesh and his (proxied) shaman. I deploy my Ravagers towards my zone. I want to score that so the Argus gets to follow. He has a very weak presence there and the forest forces him to split up to contest. I think my ravagers could hold that zone. Ghetorix gets to go in the middle. He is a glass cannon in this match up as he will die to 2 lights or one heavy. I plan to keep him back to threaten makeda if she goes in too deep. I send my trackers off to the west and they prey Molik to keep him honest. WW is in the middle and i place him in a triangle of stones and both triangles are interspersed for added trickery. Cassius is not in a triangle and that is a mistake. As he has no offensive upkeeps to dispel, i send the Night Witch on a flank to be annoying. Champions go in the middle as they can adapt to what ever he chooses to do. Skorne T1 He is pretty slow, and i have not very long threat ranges. He swarms the middle with lights. Molik gets to stand in the cloud and B2B with a Brute for bulwark and shield guard. DEF 17 against shooting means the Trackers will have a hard time.
Circle T1 I already start with the jank tech! One stone unit ports the stone keeper of the OTHER unit, and that attachment then ports forward to be within 3" of Molik. He forgets that he can throw a spell afterwards, but thats not the point damnit! Cassius runs to be within 8" of the keeper. WW then arcs a hellmouth at the keeper, boosting damage on it (to be sure to kill it) and pull Molik forward. DEF 13 against RAT 8 is not at all as impressive, but i roll poorly and JUST manage to kill him. AFTER the game we remember that he has hyper aggressive on everything and that would have screwed up this idea big time, but we both forgot. I repo back in to a fan to not be super eaten by the Brute. On the east i run up the Ravagers and stay outside 11" of Makeda. The Bone grinder grunts go stand in front of Ghetorix who tramples over them. He hits all, and they all tough... The Ravager shaman saves the day by zapping all 3 to death though. My Argus goes up to the zone and the night witch runs wide. My champions hang back.
Skorne T2 He decides to run the west Brute to engage bloodtrackers (they moved prey to him). He then builds "Fort Makeda" in the middle of the table, daring me to go in. He does not even try to contest the east zone, so hurray for me?
He debates a long time over what to shoot with the shamans. He could give one of them guidance and then try to kill Cassius over 2 turns, but instead he goes for the Champions and one Ravager, triggering vengeance on the half-painted unit.
Circle T2 Time for more Hellmouth tricks (that do not work if one remembers hyper aggressive, but still!). I use one unit of stones to port one member of the other unit. Then that unit ports, leaving one stone 3" behind the brute who is engaging the Bloodtrackers. Cassius runs in to position and i Arc a hellmouth, pulling the Brute out of melee with the trackers. I also cast CoS on it for good measure. Bloodtrackers then obliterate it, moving prey to the Raider. I thing 6 of them shot the objective, but i roll TERRIBLE and only do 1 damage. Oh, i feat this turn too to.. not die you know...
On the other side, i send in a few Ravagers. Two of them kill the Shield Guards on Makeda as i figure it is "safe" to give her extra STR and ARM this turn (forgot she got pathfinder!) 3 more go for the shaman in his forest and they easily kill it. My beasts Rile and walk in to position for next turn. I figured he can easily kill the Ravagers i send in, but nothing else really.
I score 1-0.
Skorne T3 He can kill some ravagers (and give me souls) but he cant do much else. He feels the loss of his beasts and wants to try and kill me. We cooperate to come up with a plan to do so!
WW is camping 0 but has SG up and no souls. He can walk a brute in to melee with all the buffs if he can only get rid of the ravagers threatening free strikes... He can also shoot WW with the shaman. That might be enough? At this point we think the Brute is POW 13, but it is only 12 and that makes a big difference. Anyway, he has the raider slam one ravager. unfortunately he slams it in to the wall and i take extra damage, which he spikes, so 1 soul to WW. Looking at the pics, i think the krea could have walked up and head butted, making the kill VERY unlikely. The gladiator walks up with Rush and throws one ravager back towards his beast masters (and out of soul collecting range). The Savage walks up and head buts the last ravager in the middle. Makeda feats for Incite and camps. The shaman gets Guidence and shoots WW but rolls poorly. Then the Brute walks up and needs to roll REALLY well, but doesnt, so i survive on like 12 boxes...
He has not contested my zone so, 2-0 to me.
Circle T3 I can get Ghetorix to him, but that is the wrong play for sure here. He is camping way too much and has plenty of transfers, high DEF and an agonizer to boot. Not falling for that one. Instead i have the Ravager shaman shoot lightning at a shifting stone, bouncing 3 times to a stone, cassius and most importantly, a blood tracker. The tracker dies, making room for Cassius to go closer to the zone (in retrospect this was unessecary as he could have placed close enough anyway. Then WW ports in to the west zone and cast CoS on the objective. The blood trackers blow it up, and i score 3 more, making it 5-0.
Post Game The forgetting about hyper aggressive really changes the match up. I could not have done either of my two hellmouth plays, and that was huge. The plays themselves were good, but this particular list counters it. I would have had to try and use strangle hold and/or forests to control the pieces, and charged with the trackers to do way less damage (fewer attacks). Might still have been playable, but very different.
Playing WW felt just as much fun as i had hoped though. Many many tricks and a very high skill sealing that rewards a good player. With (much) more practice this could be really good! The BoO variant that ill probably continue with Has even more tricks and im looking forward to playing with them for sure.
Makeda 3 seems really scary and im not looking forward to have to play an actual game against her. We discussed a lot afterwards, and we agree that even if he did lose the beasts early on, if he just Kills the ravagers i gave him and keep playing for attrition (and contest scenario) he will get 1-2 more rounds, and Makeda could obliterate the entire right flank in an instant by feating at the right moment, and that buys him more time to force me to fight him head on. The blood Trackers are actually super bad in the match up (due to hyper aggressive) so if the ravagers go down, im probably F-ed...
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Post by Trollock on Mar 2, 2019 20:24:59 GMT
Now there are very few casters left for me to try in my Tharn Journey. Morv2, Una2 and Kaya3. Ill skip Una2 as it is obvious now that she will work just fine, and im not interested in buying all the birds ever(?), and ill save Kaya3 for if i play against some one who is not very competitive minded. Her synergy with DH is fairly limited, and it could make for a more fun game against an (even more) casual player.
That leaves Morv 2. I had dojoed a couple of lists for her and not really found any that i liked, but then a mr Paul Shear shared a list on FB and i liked it a lot at a glance. I have tweaked it very slightly but the core of the list remains the same. Ill try and play this list (or one very like it) on wednesday!
I still havent put the Raptor on the table (and i do not own one, or have any special plans on buying one) but it felt cool here even if Morvahna doenst do much for it. LotF with no real support also looks a bit weak, but even if he will not kill the world, he needs to be respected and forces model placement, and i think he probably is worth more than another champion just for that fact. Paul played two Shamans rather than the nightwitch, which allows his Ravagers to split up. I am way to cheap for such extravagance and wanted the utility of the night witch. A Blood shaman could also work, but it seems pretty weak with Morv2. The night witch could also help heal her in theory and that is super good. Paul plays a moonhound and a chef rather than a gorax too, which gives an extra solo and more accuracy with the guns. I elected the gorax to at least threaten to have the raptor murder something in melee.
We shall see how this works out, and then ill start working on a pairing for real
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Post by kjata on Mar 4, 2019 7:41:56 GMT
I should point out that I haven't ever used the lord of the feast with the croc pot (I know I need one but I haven't gotten around to buying it yet), and the Lord of the feast is pretty good without it. He isn't a brutal murderer who kills casters or hard targets, but he can easily get like 4 or 5 kills, and can also get into some interesting places and kill support models. Without the pot, he kind of reminds me of Lord Longfellow in that he isn't really worth the points, but is probably the best solo you can get for free. Sometimes he kills some key support model, sometimes he kills 4 enemy soldiers, sometimes he stands on a flag with 17 arm, 8 boxes, and stealth.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 7, 2019 13:28:53 GMT
Morvahna 2 vs Absylonia 1 (Game 1)Before the game we talked about the match up. I wanted to play the Morv list, and he has a list with Thags 1 in CotD and a list with Abby 1. Carnivore is a VERY good spell against Thagrosh as it stops his feat. We also THINK (need to check the rules forum) that carnivore stops regular incubi from spawning, so that was not a good match up. Abby 1 has proteus and a throne who stop my feat, but she also has plenty of upkeeps, and her beasts are high DEF, so Carnivore will be nice against her in general. It seemed like a playable game from both sides to begin with at least. Deployment and stuffWe play the Pit and he won the roll, choosing to go first. I usually place the terrain at our gaming club, but not this time. I find the lack of forests disturbing! Also, basically all models ignore basically all the terrain, so that was a bit boring. He deploys the throne to the west with proteus in the middle and flying beasts around. I say that i dont want to fight the throne with Ravagers, so i place both units to the east, and have wolves across from the throne instead. I do this because i get snacking and Grievous wounds mixed up. The throne is not great against Ravagers as tough really screws it over, but it CAN RFP what it kills. I place the Raptor to the west because.. it can fit there... As usual i forget that the night witch as AD, but that never really matters. LotF has a very different role here than it has when i play Grayle or some such caster. He cant really kill things, BUT he can apply GW to bypass his feat which is very good. Legion T1He runs up with everything, BUT he respects LotF and stays outside 16". Already i think he has been worth the inclusion. I have no intent of going in, and if i did, it would have very limited effect, but keeping him back a few inches is great! He also fears the 21" threat of the bird and Wolves. Yay for me! Circle T1Wolves hide behind the forest. They are in no hurry. Bird just walks up and waits. the Ravagers run up BUT respect the 15" threat of proteus. They do not care if the other beasts can reach them. I intersperse them to "force" him triggering vengeance twice. Morv gets Carnivore up on the half painted ravagers. I get no knockdown on the back lines of Ravagers. Cant reach the front line due to poor placement. LotF and the Night witch stay back in the rubble to threaten with GW if he comes forward. Legion T2He does come forward! In fact he does a really complicated maneuver with the Neraph where he goes in, kills one and pulls one in to threat range of Proteus. The then sprints to jam deeper. Proteus comes in and eats one (the only one he can reach) to RFP. He kills several more Ravagers in the front lines. He feats hiding behind the building. The throne just runs up for questionable reasons. He is very dissapointed with his turn. He used a lot of clock and a plan that does not seem very good. Circle T2This turn my dice are on fire. I kill the neraph with just vengeance and two of the half painted ravagers. MAT 9 really helped! I shoot Proteus with boosted shots from the bird. LotF shoots Proteus and smacks him AND the Seraph, but misses the Seraph. GW on Proteus is the main plan though. I easily kill him with Ravagers. I try to dispell his spells too, and do some damage to his caster. Im camping 2 and i run the Gorax in front to not be assassinated. the wolves actually do a lot of damage to the throne, but do not kill it. It fels like i have crippled him. Legion T3He feels he has to assassinate. In a convoluted series of events he kills the Gorax so i have no transfer target. He then sends in the Seraph with Wild aggression and eats Morvahna in melee. Had i not forced the last time with the Bird (totally unnessecary as i had plenty of ravagers) or just ran away with the Gorax, i would have been fine. Live and learn... We play another game with the same lists, but i dont have time to write that now. Cya next time! /T
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Post by Trollock on Mar 8, 2019 21:30:50 GMT
Morvahna 2 vs Absylonia 1 (Game 2)So, we roll a new scenario and change terrain (including more pieces that ACTUALLY do something lol). Our lists are the same though (see previous post).
Deployment and stuff
He wins the roll off and choses to go first. I like the side with a building as i want to hide Morvahna better this time. I also get a forest on my side and that can be very good for me. We had talked about him needing to leverage Proteus and the throne against my Ravagers as they can really screw me over. He deploys them centrally so i cant trivially ignore one of them. I chose to split the Ravagers this time. I place the wolves on the east side to fight and kill any solos he puts on his flag. The Bird has to be somewhere and i elect to have it just left of center where it can shoot at much of the table. The terrain feels restrictive for a huge base though. Good thing i have flight!
Legion T1 He runs up now. He is not respecting the threat of the wolf riders which is probably a good thing. Proteus and the Throne stay centrally so he could potentially switch sides if needed.
Circle T1 The Wolves try to shoot down his Hellion on the east, but they activated before Morv, and only one has access to rerolls. I do a total of 4 points. I reposition in to a sort of cloud to not give him too much stuff. Morv got Carnivore up on the east Ravager unit and Censures two of his upkeeps which he keeps. I repo back to safety. The Raptor moves up and shoots the Seraph doing pretty nasty damage and then repos back. Ravagers on the east respect the threat of Proteus but not that of the angel. Ravagers on the west respect the threat of the throne melee, but not that of the angel. They also have a nice wall there. Champion actually moved back. I want her for the flag next turn and i do not want to risk losing her. LotF hides behind the building and the Night witch also move back. I want them for later, and he has some nice spot removal with his beasts so i play safe. Gorax also stays back, ready to go in to the east zone next turn if needed. I get no knockdown up on the east ravagers.
Legion T2
He decides to play conservatively and only take what i have given him. His east angel can actually get to 3 wolves and kills them all, and then refuges back outside Ravager threat. The Neraph can be slip streamed and walk up to the wolf in the forest, killing it. It then sprints forward. Proteus moves up to threaten the Ravagers next turn. He decides to feat this turn to heal the Seraph and make the Neraph tankier. I think that is probably an OK option, but his feat is weak in this game for sure. On the west he is very passive and safe. He contests his side, but does no work at all. I do not think the Seraph shot anything either. Circle T2 I decide to get cute. Morv walks up and casts Sunder Spirit on the Seraph to remove slip stream. This limits Proteus threat to 13" which is way easier to handle. She then cencures all 3 of his upkeeps and he keeps them. I am WAY too greedy and decide not to feat just for the 4 Wolves. This is a huge mistake in retrospect, cause ill never get a better feat and he can just kill the last wolf to "RFP" the entire unit. Learning when to feat with Morv is probably an important skill, and one i do not have yet.
I send in LotF on the Neraph and then boost damage on it and apply GW. It has 16 boxes left, so 2 Ravagers should kill it, but i send in 3 just in case. I blow it up, but a 4th ravager has "hidded" behind the forest too close to Proteus... This is a mistake that gets huge effects later on. On the west i shoot the throne with the bird and run in a ravager to contest his zone. The Night witch runs west to take over scoring the flag next turn. I score my zone with Gorax and my flag with the champion, so 2-0 to circle!
Legion T3 He finishes off the last wolf rider easily. He sends in Proteus and he can reach 4 Ravagers, and he eats them all, and LotF to boot. This should have been 2 Ravagers (and LotF) as i could have relied on re-rolls and MAT 9 to have them eat the Neraph, but i got overly careful with dice math AND misplaced a ravager to boot. His west Hellion sprays against the Ravagers, and repos back to his zone (mistake. he should have repoed forward to contest the flag). The Throne kills a bunch of Ravagers. He tries to shoot down the DEF 19 champion with the angel rather than contesting, but no luck. Abby Went in to the central zone to score it and is camping 6. He actually manages to shoot down the Gorax in the zone so Proteus is now scoring my zone! He scores 4 and i score 1 so... 4-3 to Legion!
He scored way more points than i had hoped AND he killed more Ravagers than i should have given him. The remaining 3 probably cant kill Proteus... Had they been 4-5 it would have been much better. I feel like Proteus HAS to die this turn now though so ill have to use Morvahna... She charges in and knocks him down. She punches him twice i think with life trader and boosted damage, but despite using rerolls she does poor damage. I also feated back 2 Ravagers who died from spells on the west. Proteus HAS to die though so i charge in Ravagers and need to reroll and im actually down to 1 HP after every thing is done, but im camping 3. Proteus is still alive on 7 boxes... The Ravager Shaman charges in and rolls 15 on damage, just killing him! phew, that was close... The Raptor walked up, punching the throne to death (though i needed to reroll twice i think, thats why Morv was so low). Champion walked up and shot the angel and the repos in to engage the Hellion. Two Ravagers charge the Angel, and the others run to contest/engage stuff. Night witch scores my flag and Morv scores my zone. I cant contest his flag though so 5-5 on scenario.
Legion T4 He doesnt feel great about continuing to grind. He feels like my bird is too tough to handle even if he can get the Ravagers down. I AM camping 3 on 1 HP though... As he cant leach any fury his east angel frenzies killing a ravager and heal me to 2... He has the Seraph apparate and then move with slip stream 2". He gets Wild Aggression up. The seraph charges Morv for free and eats her (critting all attacks for good measure!)
Post Game Thoughts It felt like i gave him assassination outs in both games that could have been avoided by a better player. Morv shouldnt have needed to commit so hard to Proteus if i had not given him 1-2 extra ravagers with Proteus. I could have feated back the 4 wolf riders too, making attrition look even better. Knowing when to feat seems SUPER important. As i made mistakes early on, i had to take a risk in the second game to get back to even, and this time it didnt pay off. If i am on 1 more transfer and a couple more boxes his assassination fails and i can mop up. If i do not even have to commit Morv to Proteus (and just have the Ravagers kill him) I can be safe behind the house. Lots of small mistakes that led to death. Clearly a pilot error rather than any effect of the match up or list.
Morv2 was more fun to play than i had thought. I might come back to her some time. The Raptor felt pretty nice too. I might have to buy one eventually, especially after seeing Tomazs' paint job on it...
Starting the week after next, ill work on a proper pairing. We shall see which pairing though. I am actually really keen on both Baldur 1, 2 and Grayle. WW also feels interesting. We shall see where we end up!
Thanks for reading! /T
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Post by Trollock on Mar 14, 2019 10:03:55 GMT
There has been some talk of Tanith as a Skorne drop lately and i think that is a super strong idea. He gun is great against battle engines (and it stops hyper aggressive on their beasts at least) and Affliction is amazing against immortals, especially with things with lots of attacks. She brings no real defensive tech, but that doesnt really help against skorne anyway. She fixes MAT and POW in multiple ways and that is nifty. Her feat is... non existent , but it helps her cycling spells at least I figured id bring her as my DH list and pair her with WW in bones, as that still covers the shooty things she wants to avoid. I decided to bring wolf riders as they have a large volume of attacks and are annoying in general. Double Ravagers is the core of the list, and i bring the slam goat (soo fun with admonition!) and either Loki or Ghetorix Ghetorix is probably the better choice i guess... How about this for starters? Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host [Tanith 1] Tanith the Feral Song [+31] - Gnarlhorn Satyr [12] - Loki/Ghetorix [19] Bloodweaver Night Witch [4] Gallows Grove [2] Lord of the Feast [0(6)] Tharn Ravager Shaman [4] Tharn Wolf Rider Champion [0(7)] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] BrĂghid & Caul [7] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [0(5)] Tharn Ravagers (max) [15] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [5] Tharn Wolf Riders (max) [18]
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