Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 24, 2018 8:04:59 GMT
Whew. So played Skarre2 today against a Legion Blighted Ogrun theme... That was rough!
I really learned a lot from that loss, and got me thinking about a good way to combat high ARM armies besides just Skarre1. I have decided on trying out Deneghra1 for my anti-ARM skew lists with the Scourge theme. Although I was hesitant to use a non-Satyxis model in my Satyxis list, I have come to a simple solution. I will be ordering some parts off of PP's store for some conversions on my Khador army, I will just tack on a Satyxis Raider Captain head onto my order and do a head swap on Denny!
I also learned that using Skarre2's feat against cavalry is a bit of a waste, since Cav get boosted charge attack rolls. At that point, buffing my Seether that had the last two of the new Legion Ogrun "cavalry" he wasn't able to kill, would have given him a far better chance at surviving.
It was a tough but fun game, and made me realize just how versatile the Satyxis Raiders really are. Dispel on the Blood Witch UA was something I have never gotten to use before... And was amazing. I just have to not forget that Skarre2 has a Hand Cannon as well, after only playing Skarre1 with my Cryx I often forget about the whole "ranged attack deal" that Warcasters can have.
Edit. I am also thinking of trying out Ragman with Denny1 in Scourge as well.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 25, 2018 6:51:47 GMT
Ragman can be difficult to leverage in an infantry list because he's actually pretty slow and needs to be within 3" from where your charging model will end up. He's great with a colossal and can work with Satyxis, but he will take time to get used to. Do note that Scourge already has access to Dark Shroud through the Blood Hag, so Ragman might not give you as much return of investment there, though a Bone Shaker bot can still have its uses. It does sound like you missed that Skarre's feat prevents the model from getting charged? It's actually great against cavalry and melee armies in general, especially on something beefy like a Kraken. Skarre 2 can indeed have trouble breaking armour as she lacks an ARM debuff, that's why she's often built with a bunch of heavies or a colossal with some mixed ranged attacks sprinkled in to leverage Black Spot on the approach. Did I mention I love the Kraken on her? It synergizes well with basically all of her kit (Black Spot, Future Sight, Death Ward, feat), takes Death Field well and is awesome in Slaughterfleet. One of the few casters that I still bother to try to get work out of a Kraken with.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 25, 2018 21:36:29 GMT
Ragman can be difficult to leverage in an infantry list because he's actually pretty slow and needs to be within 3" from where your charging model will end up. He's great with a colossal and can work with Satyxis, but he will take time to get used to. Do note that Scourge already has access to Dark Shroud through the Blood Hag, so Ragman might not give you as much return of investment there, though a Bone Shaker bot can still have its uses. It does sound like you missed that Skarre's feat prevents the model from getting charged? It's actually great against cavalry and melee armies in general, especially on something beefy like a Kraken. Skarre 2 can indeed have trouble breaking armour as she lacks an ARM debuff, that's why she's often built with a bunch of heavies or a colossal with some mixed ranged attacks sprinkled in to leverage Black Spot on the approach. Did I mention I love the Kraken on her? It synergizes well with basically all of her kit (Black Spot, Future Sight, Death Ward, feat), takes Death Field well and is awesome in Slaughterfleet. One of the few casters that I still bother to try to get work out of a Kraken with. Hah! I completely forgot about the Blood Hag having Dark Shroud! Good catch, that does make Ragman a bit less appetizing to take with an infantry heavy list. I did find that Black Spot on a unit of high ARM cavalry is a fsntastic target for a Seether benefiting from both Berserk and Black Spot. I do see value into the 2" melee Cryx 'Jacks now with Skarre2 because of Black Spot, but besides the Reaper, those 'Jacks seem to be very expensive points wise.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 26, 2018 6:03:14 GMT
Hah! I completely forgot about the Blood Hag having Dark Shroud! Good catch, that does make Ragman a bit less appetizing to take with an infantry heavy list. I did find that Black Spot on a unit of high ARM cavalry is a fsntastic target for a Seether benefiting from both Berserk and Black Spot. I do see value into the 2" melee Cryx 'Jacks now with Skarre2 because of Black Spot, but besides the Reaper, those 'Jacks seem to be very expensive points wise. I hate to burst your bubble, but you can't benefit from both Berserk and Black Spot as stated under "Attack-Generating Special Rules" on page 43 of the Prime rules digest. There are many useful applications for Black Spot, both at ranged and in melee, but stacking it with Berserk is sadly not one of them. Unless you're talking about the -2 DEF, but I'm not sure why that would be relevant for a MAT 8 Seether. Off the top of my head, we have 3 (heavy) jacks with 2" melee, being the Reaper, Inflictor and Harrower. Besides that we have the two colossals that have 2" base and 4" during their activation and Kharybdis that has 1" base and 4" during its activation. The Harrower is indeed expensive, but it already has Thresher, so slightly less useful to stack Black Spot on that. The Inflictor costs exactly the same as a Reaper and has a shield, so does synergize well with Death Ward.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 26, 2018 18:09:01 GMT
Hah! I completely forgot about the Blood Hag having Dark Shroud! Good catch, that does make Ragman a bit less appetizing to take with an infantry heavy list. I did find that Black Spot on a unit of high ARM cavalry is a fsntastic target for a Seether benefiting from both Berserk and Black Spot. I do see value into the 2" melee Cryx 'Jacks now with Skarre2 because of Black Spot, but besides the Reaper, those 'Jacks seem to be very expensive points wise. I hate to burst your bubble, but you can't benefit from both Berserk and Black Spot as stated under "Attack-Generating Special Rules" on page 43 of the Prime rules digest. There are many useful applications for Black Spot, both at ranged and in melee, but stacking it with Berserk is sadly not one of them. Unless you're talking about the -2 DEF, but I'm not sure why that would be relevant for a MAT 8 Seether. Off the top of my head, we have 3 (heavy) jacks with 2" melee, being the Reaper, Inflictor and Harrower. Besides that we have the two colossals that have 2" base and 4" during their activation and Kharybdis that has 1" base and 4" during its activation. The Harrower is indeed expensive, but it already has Thresher, so slightly less useful to stack Black Spot on that. The Inflictor costs exactly the same as a Reaper and has a shield, so does synergize well with Death Ward. Hopefully I played Black Spot right than. Seether charged, fail to kill with left talon, hit with right talon and killed cav, did Berserk attack since both it and Black Spot say "immediately after the attack is resolved" I got to choose the order that the abilities are activated in, than did a Black Spot attack and bought more attacks... So is that not correct? If not than I will have to keep that in mind for next time.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 27, 2018 6:24:39 GMT
Hopefully I played Black Spot right than. Seether charged, fail to kill with left talon, hit with right talon and killed cav, did Berserk attack since both it and Black Spot say "immediately after the attack is resolved" I got to choose the order that the abilities are activated in, than did a Black Spot attack and bought more attacks... So is that not correct? If not than I will have to keep that in mind for next time. That is indeed not correct. Both trigger, but you have to choose which one to gain an attack from, because you only get one (and since Berserk says "must", you can't pick Black Spot and choose not to make the attack). So in your specific case, if you failed to kill with the Berserk attack, you could not also choose to use Black Spot. If however the Berserk attack killed your target, you would get another trigger for both Berserk and Black Spot. Note that when buying additional attacks, they can also trigger both Berserk and Black Spot. Also note that if you were to choose to resolve Black Spot first and killed your target, you would get another Berserk trigger, but not another Black Spot trigger as Black Spot specifically states that it can't generate more Black Spot attacks.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jun 27, 2018 8:18:19 GMT
Hopefully I played Black Spot right than. Seether charged, fail to kill with left talon, hit with right talon and killed cav, did Berserk attack since both it and Black Spot say "immediately after the attack is resolved" I got to choose the order that the abilities are activated in, than did a Black Spot attack and bought more attacks... So is that not correct? If not than I will have to keep that in mind for next time. That is indeed not correct. Both trigger, but you have to choose which one to gain an attack from, because you only get one (and since Berserk says "must", you can't pick Black Spot and choose not to make the attack). So in your specific case, if you failed to kill with the Berserk attack, you could not also choose to use Black Spot. If however the Berserk attack killed your target, you would get another trigger for both Berserk and Black Spot. Note that when buying additional attacks, they can also trigger both Berserk and Black Spot. Also note that if you were to choose to resolve Black Spot first and killed your target, you would get another Berserk trigger, but not another Black Spot trigger as Black Spot specifically states that it can't generate more Black Spot attacks. Great! That is super helpful. Thank you for that!
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 28, 2018 9:59:06 GMT
If you’re looking to abuse black spot, then the Kraken really is your friend. I actually like putting him on Aiakod since Skarre2 is pretty stingy with her FOC.
If you’re not particularly attached to the theme, Pistol Wraiths are great users of black spot.
The Kraken really is amazing with Skarre2. It has so much synergy with her kit. Black spot is stupid with the Kraken. The Kraken makes great use of Death Ward. Most armies have very little that is a genuine threat to the Kraken, so you can fear on the Kraken plus the enemy heavies, giving you an effective DEF 20 Kraken, who is immune to knockdown and stationary (the two common ways around Skarre’s feat) due to being a colossal.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 28, 2018 12:07:36 GMT
If you’re looking to abuse black spot, then the Kraken really is your friend. I actually like putting him on Aiakod since Skarre2 is pretty stingy with her FOC. It's a tradeoff in my opinion. Aiakos feeds it focus and makes it faster, but he's also easy to take out and render your colossal useless. You also lose the benefit of Future Sight. If the kraken is the only thing in your battlegroup that requires focus, it's actually not that bad, as you can feed it 2, boost a Black Spot or Soul Strike, upkeep Deathward and Admonition with hp and camp 1 and that's without a Misery Cage.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 28, 2018 12:46:49 GMT
I find it's very difficult to kill Aiakos. Stealth plus hanging back makes him really hard to kill. Add to that the +2 SPD from the Kraken and it's great value.
Skarre2 does not have the kind of statline to camp 1, btw. That's a recipe for a violent death. Unless you're bubble-wrapping her in victims for sac pawn from a blood priestess she is going to die. Even with a priestess, everyone around her is a small-based model, so your opponent can just murder the priestess and then go on to shoot Skarre in the face. It's not like Skarre3 where a massive base can hide the priestess.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 28, 2018 12:58:57 GMT
I find it's very difficult to kill Aiakos. Stealth plus hanging back makes him really hard to kill. Add to that the +2 SPD from the Kraken and it's great value. Skarre2 does not have the kind of statline to camp 1, btw. That's a recipe for a violent death. Unless you're bubble-wrapping her in victims for sac pawn from a blood priestess she is going to die. Even with a priestess, everyone around her is a small-based model, so your opponent can just murder the priestess and then go on to shoot Skarre in the face. It's not like Skarre3 where a massive base can hide the priestess. That's fair, though you can always hide her behind terrain, or the Kraken, unlike Skarre 3, and I like her in Slaughterfleet, where she has medium bases and/or clouds to hide behind. Unlike with Stalkers, Aiakos 1 will only have an 8" control area to the Kraken. If you want to leverage that extra threat range, he won't be hanging too far back.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 28, 2018 14:04:38 GMT
I like the extra threat for getting closer with the flayer cannon (which with black spot will trigger multiple unicorn cannon shots), or for walking up to a couple of overextended infantry models in order to pick up some corpses. If I'm going all-in on max threat range, I expect the Kraken to die to the counterpunch, so Aiakos is free to do whatever at that point.
Another interesting option is Ragman, although you won't get use out of him every game. Still, you can hang back shooting, and then when the enemy is forced to close with you Ragman can push up the Kraken's damage to fantastic levels. Can be really useful since Skarre2 doesn't have a damage buff, although you can have trouble with 'jack-spam since you don't have enough quality attacks to deal with something like Gaspy-slayers.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jul 2, 2018 3:29:46 GMT
Well, it turns out that Deneghra1 is a great drop into the Broken Coast list I have been using. Here is what I ran;
Cryx - Deneghra1 75pt.
Theme: Scourge of the Broken Coast 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Warwitch Deneghra - WJ: +26 - Satyxis Blood Priestess - PC: 4 - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Reaper - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Seether - PC: 13 - Seether - PC: 13
Severa Blacktide - PC: 0 Axiara Wraithblade - PC: 0
Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 4 Satyxis Blood Witches - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Satyxis Blood Hag - PC: 4 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
I was VERY happy with how the list ran, even with forgetting Dark Shroud on my Blood Hag UA (like always), the list didn't have much trouble with breaking ARM or dealing damage. I know for certain that I was unable to use Denny to the best of her ability, and generally had poor position with the Nightwretches to get the best use of their Arc Nodes. But even with that, the list felt very solid.
I can see the point with taking a Kraken with Skarre2 though, I just don't really care for the model. I would prefer to stay with heavy 'jacks instead of a Colossal or Battle Engine, and know that it will limit some of the effectiveness of Skarre2, but I don't plan on playing in many tournaments or truly competitive settings.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Jul 7, 2018 2:19:53 GMT
Well, to keep Deneghra1 fitting my all Satyxis army, I had ordered a Satyxis Raider Captain head (along with $60 of other bits for conversions). I am quite happy how Deneghra came out, and it only took a minor bit of cutting on the back of her collar and some filing on the front to let the Raider Captain's chin clear the collar. I still haven't figured out what I want to do with the flimsy spikes that are supposed to go on her back. But I ordered the shoulder blades from Nightmare as an option, and it looks pretty good. It would just take some minor fitting to get them to work. But, I present: Captain Dengarra, Scourge of the Ordic Coast
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 9, 2018 6:03:20 GMT
Try the spikes of the latest Deneghra 2 sculpt. They are much less flimsy.
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