|
Post by macdaddy on May 27, 2018 12:53:21 GMT
You guys seem to forget that a good Harby player will force you to target specific models like punch monks, limiting the attacks you can do and allowing her to martyr more. You also seem to forget that she almost always is immune to spells, def 18 or 20, and has 2-3 shield guards. A good Harby player can get the most out of martyrdom, sit at low health and still live, it gets pretty gross as the game goes on and you start losing pieces at slower Rate. Some lists are not capable to pinging a Def 18-20 model with 2/3 shield guards and spell immunity. Know who makes Harbie AND punch monks cry? Feora1. Damn it Paradox your salesmanship is superb... *looking up feora 1 on internet stores*
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 27, 2018 14:09:26 GMT
Know who makes Harbie AND punch monks cry? Feora1. Damn it Paradox your salesmanship is superb... *looking up feora 1 on internet stores* She’s got a bunch of non-targeting or auto-hitting effects. And Hex Hammer dings Harbie for d3 each time she Purifies it. Fire pretty much obliges Harbie to camp 1 into her own turn.
|
|
martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
|
Post by martini on May 27, 2018 14:40:14 GMT
And she is allergic to spray attacks. No shield guard, no cover or concealment. And even when it is a spell spray You just need to target another model a have Harbi under tge template (the same trick is used to attack Reznik 2 with any spray attack).
E-leaps can also be scary but they are not as popular as sprays.
Any kind of healing prevention just stops her game.
She needs a strong pair because there is quite a list of things she hates to see on the other side of the table.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 27, 2018 17:04:42 GMT
At 14/14 17 or less life, she does fall over at a harsh glare. But she is immune to KD, to blind and has the best protection any faction can buy. Also focus 10, awe.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 27, 2018 18:53:41 GMT
But when you're 14/14, that means alolt less. Awe only affects living, so the list of things she fails to debuff that can also handily boost to kill her through overpower is pretty long.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 28, 2018 9:06:17 GMT
But when you're 14/14, that means alolt less. Awe only affects living, so the list of things she fails to debuff that can also handily boost to kill her through overpower is pretty long. A warjack to the face? Sure. A non-living warcaster/warlock in melee? Sure. Isn't that the way it should be?
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 28, 2018 11:49:43 GMT
But when you're 14/14, that means alolt less. Awe only affects living, so the list of things she fails to debuff that can also handily boost to kill her through overpower is pretty long. A warjack to the face? Sure. A non-living warcaster/warlock in melee? Sure. Isn't that the way it should be? Any undead. Any guns in 10”/12”.
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on May 28, 2018 12:00:05 GMT
"Any guns" is an overstatement IMO. "Any Spray guns" maybe. Harby hardly ever moves, she stays behind the FM wall all game. DEF14 + Cover + possible Awe + 2 Shield Guards for those shots that get through is FAR beyond the capability of "any guns" in my experience.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 28, 2018 13:04:47 GMT
"Any guns" is an overstatement IMO. "Any Spray guns" maybe. Harby hardly ever moves, she stays behind the FM wall all game. DEF14 + Cover + possible Awe + 2 Shield Guards for those shots that get through is FAR beyond the capability of "any guns" in my experience. There are plenty of ways to both hit over a wall, and overwhelm shield guard models. Harbie cant be KDed, but her shield guards can, for instance.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on May 28, 2018 13:09:21 GMT
"Any guns" is an overstatement IMO. "Any Spray guns" maybe. Harby hardly ever moves, she stays behind the FM wall all game. DEF14 + Cover + possible Awe + 2 Shield Guards for those shots that get through is FAR beyond the capability of "any guns" in my experience. There are plenty of ways to both hit over a wall, and overwhelm shield guard models. Harbie cant be KDed, but her shield guards can, for instance. Spray attacks are a really good point that was made, that and cont effects. Both of which ignore her defensive tech and make her sad. I don’t think your typical ranged or Melee attack likes trying to hit Def 18/20. That’s a pretty rough def to hit.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 28, 2018 13:19:08 GMT
There are plenty of ways to both hit over a wall, and overwhelm shield guard models. Harbie cant be KDed, but her shield guards can, for instance. Spray attacks are a really good point that was made, that and cont effects. Both of which ignore her defensive tech and make her sad. I don’t think your typical ranged or Melee attack likes trying to hit Def 18/20. That’s a pretty rough def to hit. Ive faced enough Cygnar - Stryker1, Sloane, various Caines - to know not to rely on a wall or shield guards to live. Hell, its hard enough to keep Feora alive vs that. Even with the Book, a wall, shield guards, and better defensive stats on a smaller base. DEF18 with a wall doesnt save Harbie.
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on May 28, 2018 13:39:59 GMT
Against a dedicated ranged assassination monster-army like Sloan or Caines of course, I agree. Harby should never be dropped against such an army IMO, the other list should cover that weakness.
I just don't consider such a dedicated ranged assassination army to be "any guns", though. That's why I said it's an exaggeration. Harby can easily weather a solid ranged element that makes a part of your regular combined arms force in my experience.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 28, 2018 13:49:04 GMT
I agree she can't martydoom anything except shield guards (perhaps) against a Sloan-power gunline but who the hell survives that? I'll argue that a warcaster who can fully heal because she brings the abilities to do so and shield guards has a better chance that a lot of caster with much better stats but who are without 10 focus, healing in list and that don't usually bring shield guards...
Can she martyrdoom, no. Can she deliver her WMs, probably.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on May 28, 2018 16:27:10 GMT
I agree she can't martydoom anything except shield guards (perhaps) against a Sloan-power gunline but who the hell survives that? I'll argue that a warcaster who can fully heal because she brings the abilities to do so and shield guards has a better chance that a lot of caster with much better stats but who are without 10 focus, healing in list and that don't usually bring shield guards... Can she martyrdoom, no. Can she deliver her WMs, probably. As has been stated many times regarding bastions, healing is only helpful if you survive to get it. I'd give Amon hiding behind his Vigilant for DEF 20 a much better chance at living. Harbinger really shouldn't be dropped into cygnar ever if you can get around it.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 28, 2018 16:37:36 GMT
Is a Stryker1 force in Heavy Metal with avengers and chargers spread over the caster and jrs, plus a couple melee heavies really a "dedicated gunline" force? You've got a spell and a couple shots to KD shield guards, then just blast Harbie because it doesn't matter whether you've martyred them or not, they can't stop shots.
Kraye Heavy Metal lists that do similar?
Sloane is just one example.
Or how about Cryx, which basically ignore Awe entirely, and have plenty of fast jacks and threat extensions to reach a highly visible large base?
Harbie is a strong caster, sure. Healing tricks really facilitate that. But she's far from OP or unbeatable, and much of the healing noted here is contingent on a number of factors, and can be pretty easily removed, especially because Harbie cannot Martyr several of the mentioned healing pieces, and spending shield guards on them makes those SGs unavailable to Harbie (ie, it falls into a trap).
|
|