|
Post by macdaddy on May 25, 2018 22:27:13 GMT
Regardless of what anyone says there are really only 3 Reliable ways to beat Harbinger.
1: Provide a massive assasination threat that projects far and can get around her screen of dudes and layered defense 2: Have a plentiful source of healing denial 3: Either a Massive volume of high accuracy attacks OR continuous effects in droves.
If you don’t bring those tools you are probably going to lose.
All the talk of healing and such is taking away from the issue she poses, which is a powerful attrition game that requires specific gear checks.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 23:00:43 GMT
paradox Ofc, you must be right... It's a git gud issue.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 25, 2018 23:03:51 GMT
Ofc, you must be right... It's a git gud issue. Im still waiting for a cogent argument that 3d3+1 is exessive healing, especially when it requires 21+pts and an objective. There's an awful lot of assuming best-case scenarios going on.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on May 26, 2018 0:05:27 GMT
Ofc, you must be right... It's a git gud issue. Im still waiting for a cogent argument that 3d3+1 is exessive healing, especially when it requires 21+pts and an objective. There's an awful lot of assuming best-case scenarios going on. Subtracting the battle engine, she now gets 2d3 heals every round for 3 points. She can add another d3+1 for each battle engine. 3 points is miniscule for 2d3 heals on a caster that uses their hit points as a resource every turn, and the battle engines are not a tax on her list making. Having ARM 20 30+ box models that dont need to be martyred gives her more hit boxes to rescue other things, and her feat is great for protecting VoJ from weapon masters.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 26, 2018 1:07:19 GMT
Im still waiting for a cogent argument that 3d3+1 is exessive healing, especially when it requires 21+pts and an objective. There's an awful lot of assuming best-case scenarios going on. Subtracting the battle engine, she now gets 2d3 heals every round for 3 points. She can add another d3+1 for each battle engine. 3 points is miniscule for 2d3 heals on a caster that uses their hit points as a resource every turn, and the battle engines are not a tax on her list making. Having ARM 20 30+ box models that dont need to be martyred gives her more hit boxes to rescue other things, and her feat is great for protecting VoJ from weapon masters. 1. You start out assuming the scenario has any objective, or that its in an accessible spot. 2. Your rules and math are off. Hiero heals d3+1. VoJ heals d3. Objective heals d3. So for 3pts she can heal d3+1 with hiero, if he is B2B and foregoes Harmonius Exaltation. If the scenario provides a reasonable accessible objective, you can heal d3 from that. You also firego magic weapons or pathfinder, both of which can randomly hose you in tables or pairings. In my experience, jacks or guns are enough to kill the BE, especially because its cutting to heal Harbie, and not getting healed by objective, which youve devoted to Harbie already. So unless you take mechanics, its alot lower on health in play. If you face leaps or trick shots, your mech die or cost you additional martyrs. Ive played this game. Its alot less rosey than you present.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on May 26, 2018 3:39:15 GMT
Remember that if Harbinger is healing with her focus, she isn't using that focus to cast spells or camp.
She does have a large amount of potential, but she runs out of steam quite quickly. The key is to overwhelm her.
Realistically, she can Martyr 7 models a turn. Average damage of 2 per martyrdom. She has 17 hit points, you'll never martyr if she is at 3 HP or below. 14 hit points divided by 2 is 7.
With the Hierophant and Battle Engine she heals 2D3+1. Which is average of 5. So she needs to get another 9 points of healing somewhere. 9 focus each turn for healing is a lot and leaves her camping only 1(2 with wracks).
The key to beating Harbinger is to come at her multiple ways. kill a bunch of stuff each turn to force martyrdoms while simultaneously threatening attacks on Harbinger personally. That way she has to think about camping, which is less healing she can do. She's gonna have to start letting stuff die to keep herself from being one shot by a lucky pow12.
Yes, its grindy, but its far from any sort of gear check.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 26, 2018 18:45:47 GMT
Ofc, you must be right... It's a git gud issue. Im still waiting for a cogent argument that 3d3+1 is exessive healing, especially when it requires 21+pts and an objective. There's an awful lot of assuming best-case scenarios going on. As I originally stated it's OK with everyone except Harbinger. She isn't saving random grunts she is saving the stable of super solos that PoM has. Monks, paladins, nicea , seneschals, UAs ... This is in addition to tough no KD troops, solos that gain abilities when stuff dies, the book, sanguine bond, call to sacrifice etc... Just kill lots of stuff... Right. You gotta tell me what you're shooting with. I never played her with CMD 12" and I know I don't want to.
|
|
spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
|
Post by spideredd on May 26, 2018 19:23:56 GMT
Im still waiting for a cogent argument that 3d3+1 is exessive healing, especially when it requires 21+pts and an objective. There's an awful lot of assuming best-case scenarios going on. As I originally stated it's OK with everyone except Harbinger. She isn't saving random grunts she is saving the stable of super solos that PoM has. Monks, paladins, nicea , seneschals, UAs ... This is in addition to tough no KD troops, solos that gain abilities when stuff dies, the book, sanguine bond, call to sacrifice etc... Have you ever tried to play a game running Harbinger? It'll give you an idea as to what her weaknesses are and show you how fragile she really is.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 26, 2018 22:12:40 GMT
As I originally stated it's OK with everyone except Harbinger. She isn't saving random grunts she is saving the stable of super solos that PoM has. Monks, paladins, nicea , seneschals, UAs ... This is in addition to tough no KD troops, solos that gain abilities when stuff dies, the book, sanguine bond, call to sacrifice etc... Have you ever tried to play a game running Harbinger? It'll give you an idea as to what her weaknesses are and show you how fragile she really is.
I played a tournament in my life with borrowed PoM from my regular opponent but I have a lot of games against PoM in general and Harbinger in particular.
As to fragile, she isn't. She needs, wants and takes a lot of support because she intends to run low on life by using it as an additional resource not because she falls over as soon as someone looks at her. Ofc you can't martyrdoom everything and ofc you need to take into account what the opponent still has available and make good choices.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 26, 2018 22:20:01 GMT
Have you ever tried to play a game running Harbinger? It'll give you an idea as to what her weaknesses are and show you how fragile she really is.
I played a tournament in my life with borrowed PoM from my regular opponent but I have a lot of games against PoM in general and Harbinger in particular.
As to fragile, she isn't. She needs, wants and takes a lot of support because she intends to run low on life by using it as an additional resource not because she falls over as soon as someone looks at her. Ofc you can't martyrdoom everything and ofc you need to take into account what the opponent still has available and make good choices.
At 14/14 17 or less life, she does fall over at a harsh glare.
|
|
|
Post by Azuresun on May 26, 2018 22:34:31 GMT
As I originally stated it's OK with everyone except Harbinger. She isn't saving random grunts she is saving the stable of super solos that PoM has. Monks, paladins, nicea , seneschals, UAs ... This is in addition to tough no KD troops, solos that gain abilities when stuff dies, the book, sanguine bond, call to sacrifice etc... Just kill lots of stuff... Right. You gotta tell me what you're shooting with. I never played her with CMD 12" and I know I don't want to. The really annoying thing about a Harbinger matchup is that you can never rely on a particular model dying when planning your turn. You can't go "okay, so my snipers kill this guy, that opens a lane to go there and kill him, knocking those guys out of shield wall, then I'll use that auto-hitting attack to clear this guy out the zone....." That's a fairly rare capability, and really frustrating. It was quite fun watching a Haley3 player tilting hard against a 10x Bastions / 10x Cinerators list last week.
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on May 26, 2018 23:59:45 GMT
yes, bastions + senechal is nasty with her, especially when you have the battle engine because they get the d3 as well Put the vigilant under the senechal so that it never loses it's 21 armor. Now you're looking at harby with portable cover and girded. The book is great at grinding spell casting near her to a hault as well. One thing that people tend to forget about bastions is that they can hit like a truck and have defensive strike, meaning they get to hit you the moment they're engaged, before you actually attack. yeah it's only once per turn but still x.O; You aren't killing a bastion for free ^-^
|
|
moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
|
Post by moquan on May 27, 2018 11:15:44 GMT
yes, bastions + senechal is nasty with her, especially when you have the battle engine because they get the d3 as well Put the vigilant under the senechal so that it never loses it's 21 armor. Now you're looking at harby with portable cover and girded. The book is great at grinding spell casting near her to a hault as well. One thing that people tend to forget about bastions is that they can hit like a truck and have defensive strike, meaning they get to hit you the moment they're engaged, before you actually attack. yeah it's only once per turn but still x.O; You aren't killing a bastion for free ^-^ Did I miss something? CID changes went live? If yes, the Seneschal drive has been changed to 'Flank [Bastion]', unless that change didn't go through of course
The Harby meat mountain is on my to do list after changes.
More on-topic about the healing: After about 50 games in MK3 with her, she stays mostly at 2 focus behind a vigilant/wall with at least 2 shield guards. That basically means a maximum of D3+9 healing if you cast no spells. Can't martyr below 5 if you want to fully heal. No extra healing and more martyring means you just slowly die. Everything else is highly situational.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on May 27, 2018 12:22:31 GMT
You guys seem to forget that a good Harby player will force you to target specific models like punch monks, limiting the attacks you can do and allowing her to martyr more. You also seem to forget that she almost always is immune to spells, def 18 or 20, and has 2-3 shield guards.
A good Harby player can get the most out of martyrdom, sit at low health and still live, it gets pretty gross as the game goes on and you start losing pieces at slower Rate.
Some lists are not capable to pinging a Def 18-20 model with 2/3 shield guards and spell immunity.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 27, 2018 12:49:39 GMT
You guys seem to forget that a good Harby player will force you to target specific models like punch monks, limiting the attacks you can do and allowing her to martyr more. You also seem to forget that she almost always is immune to spells, def 18 or 20, and has 2-3 shield guards. A good Harby player can get the most out of martyrdom, sit at low health and still live, it gets pretty gross as the game goes on and you start losing pieces at slower Rate. Some lists are not capable to pinging a Def 18-20 model with 2/3 shield guards and spell immunity. Know who makes Harbie AND punch monks cry? Feora1.
|
|