|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 23, 2018 16:06:14 GMT
True Sight is not just for ranged attacks, it lets you charge things behind clouds as well I understand but Hashmal specifically said "He wants ranged jacks with solid shot non-Inaccurate guns. Preferably with range 12. "
So I assume he want's tristan2 to act like a gun line caster
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 23, 2018 16:10:05 GMT
True Sight is not just for ranged attacks, it lets you charge things behind clouds as well I understand but Hashmal specifically said "He wants ranged jacks with solid shot non-Inaccurate guns. Preferably with range 12. "
So I assume he want's tristan2 to act like a gun line caster
So a Charger
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on May 23, 2018 17:03:31 GMT
use a vigilant for constant cover. Her large base size is a pain in the ass so having a portable obstacle that also has girded is phenomenal.
Her feat isn't threatening enough to really be of value. It's suppose to keep the opponent from pressing further into your territory, but it doesn't even reach enough of the board to do that until you are on turn 2+ when they already have full health jacks crashing through your lines. A pow 14 means very little to them as they can take a few points of damage and keep moving forward. What's even worse is she's one of the only casters in the GAME whose feat does not count as magical, meaning that incorporeal models and models who are immune to fire are not affected by it at all.
|
|
Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
|
Post by Choco on May 23, 2018 17:50:56 GMT
Not really. Cinerators will appreciate Hand of the Creator, but Bastions will die like chumps before it's super relevant. And Tristan2 does so little else for his infantry. Tristan is, in my opinion, a very good caster in the wrong faction. He wants ranged jacks with solid shot non-Inaccurate guns. Preferably with range 12. We have some of this, but it's on expensive heavies. He needs a cheaper option. His problem as I see it is that he is one or two releases away from being a seriously good 'caster. I really don't want to derail from Harbinger. But this is confusing me incessantly. I understand he has true sight. But his big spell is Manifest Destiny which only applies to melee attack and damage rolls.
So do you want him to lose MD and move into a ranged caster role. Or is MD a good swing to make up for lost melee capability on ranged jacks?
How about this: Malekus swaps his spell Open Fire with Tristan's Manifest Destiny? I think that would be the best option in the long run. It kinda forces them both into certain play styles, but I think it is worth it. EDIT: This might be derailing the thread now, so if it is, we can start a new one.
|
|
Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
|
Post by Hashmal on May 24, 2018 2:10:40 GMT
Not really. Cinerators will appreciate Hand of the Creator, but Bastions will die like chumps before it's super relevant. And Tristan2 does so little else for his infantry. Tristan is, in my opinion, a very good caster in the wrong faction. He wants ranged jacks with solid shot non-Inaccurate guns. Preferably with range 12. We have some of this, but it's on expensive heavies. He needs a cheaper option. His problem as I see it is that he is one or two releases away from being a seriously good 'caster. I really don't want to derail from Harbinger. But this is confusing me incessantly. I understand he has true sight. But his big spell is Manifest Destiny which only applies to melee attack and damage rolls.
So do you want him to lose MD and move into a ranged caster role. Or is MD a good swing to make up for lost melee capability on ranged jacks?
The latter. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Protectorate ranged Warjacks have a melee output comparable to some factions' melee heavies. Redeemers and Repenters both get to POW 15 with just the Choir. A Reckoner easily hits POW 19. Vanquishers get to POW 18 and that's a point of criticism against them! I have surprised many opponents by sending an Ignited Redeemer into a not-Khador heavy and having the little dude hit above his weight class. MD is a kickin spell. It's not amazing in our faction, though. We can't run a melee damage force like Legion because we are a bunch of SPD 4 and 5 durdlers with no caster-independent threat range increases. Even with a threat range increase, we move up to average. It is likely we are getting charged. And because of how damage works in this game, it is likely we will lose the piece that gets charged. Without a threat range increase, Tristan2 has a tough time running a melee Warjack army. Even with one, he would just become a poorer version of Amon. When you look at his kit, though, he seriously supports a gunline style army. True Sight for engaging whatevs at range. Hand of the Creator ensuring you can win gunfights with whatever gets through Passage. Manifest Destiny so that you can tangle when their ranged elements ultimately have to move into you. And a great efficiency Feat that dissuades an army from just crashing into your lines rapidly. His problem comes not from him then, but the options available to him to support this playstyle. Our ranged pieces have some issues. Colossals are super cool but expensive. And the Revelator steps on True Sight like whoa. And Judy is Inaccurate with those big guns. And Colossals don't optimize the Feat. The Reckoner is sublime, but a bit pricey and only ROF 1. The Vanquisher is really expensive and still ROF 1. The Redeemer would be absolutely perfect if he wasn't Inaccurate! The Repenter is pretty good! But sprays step on the toes of True Sight, he is still ROF 1, and he is a little short ranged. I still think Tristan2 is a great caster hamstrung by his available options. The Protectorate hasn't seen a regular Warjack (not character, not Colossal) with a gun since Mk. 1. Should the Protectorate get an affordable ranged option with more than one shot at some point, you will see Tristan2's stock greatly increase. Okay, done derailing! Happy to continue this in PMs if ya want.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on May 24, 2018 2:20:42 GMT
Hashmal I was really hoping the Vanquisher would be in CiD and become an affordable ranged option. If he was 15 points I think you could feasibly see Tristan running a few of them. I was thinking of running tristan with double VoJ, some Templars and crusaders, and support staff contesting pieces, but I feel the scenario presence would just not be good enough.
|
|
Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
|
Post by Hashmal on May 24, 2018 2:29:06 GMT
It's not quite enough and Sevy1 runs that look better. My issue with Tristan2 double VoJ is that aside from doing a Mechaniks job he gives them nothing else and they suck up a bunch of points that could power his Feat.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on May 24, 2018 2:53:53 GMT
Hashmal I was really hoping the Vanquisher would be in CiD and become an affordable ranged option. If he was 15 points I think you could feasibly see Tristan running a few of them. I was thinking of running tristan with double VoJ, some Templars and crusaders, and support staff contesting pieces, but I feel the scenario presence would just not be good enough. Me too. there's still the slight hope that PP remembered Khador's destroyer (I know, cross faction blah blah blah, they're VERY comparable) and are simply going to drop its points without testing. It's not like anyone I've seen think it needs a mechanical change, just a PC one.
|
|
Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
|
Post by Hashmal on May 24, 2018 2:58:02 GMT
It's possible. And yes, nobody has called for a mechanical change. Vanquisher just needs to get cheaper. Get him to 15 and I will take two with Tristan2. Heck, Harby wouldn't hate them either. Vanquishers get work done.
|
|
Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
|
Post by Choco on May 24, 2018 16:01:51 GMT
|
|
kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
|
Post by kaernak on May 24, 2018 16:14:39 GMT
Thank you, I was about to suggest the same.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 24, 2018 19:36:17 GMT
The last minute addition of the Hierophant in Exemplar Interdiction will help a lot with that theme, combined with a Shrine she could be obnoxious as flip. You finally force enough Martyrdoms to where you can kill stuff, and it bloody comes back again! And then someone/something one shots Harbinger with a boosted POW 10 because she is one 1 or 2 health and has already used her shield guard(s) I have been there. It might seem a tough nut to crack for people who aren't used to playing against her, but she does have her weakenesses A caster that dies? Unplayable! Martyrdom being a weakness is beyond words... Just don't use it, use purification, crusaders call, guided hand, rebuke and cataclysm instead...
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on May 25, 2018 7:38:18 GMT
When she has the battle engine and the hierophant, she can easily... EASILY heal herself back to full. The issue is that it's only worth it when you're keeping something tanky or fairly important alive. This is why I noted the paladin faithful masses build being where she's best, at the current time. However, if EI is getting the heirophant you'll be seeing some seriously OP harby lists where you abuse the hell out of bastions.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 8:46:07 GMT
Don't forget the objective.
IMO Harbinger has access to to much healing. Not saying there an excess of healing on PoM just saying its effect is super-magnified by Martyrdom.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on May 25, 2018 11:56:51 GMT
Don't forget the objective. IMO Harbinger has access to to much healing. Not saying there an excess of healing on PoM just saying its effect is super-magnified by Martyrdom. LOL have you seen how much Reznik2 can heal? A D3 and D3+1 is hardly "too much" for an objective that might be in a place where you cant or dont want to get into, and an attachment you cant even take in some themes and which otherwise does very little for you. Not to mention the objective is probably getting popped for multiple reasons early on. The VoJ takes it to a total potential 3D3+1, or 3-4 Martyrs, on average. For 21pts + objective, Im hardly blown away. Plus, the VoJ cant heal itself and its taking D3 for each D3 it heals Harbie, and Harbie cannot Martyr the objective or VoJ. So two easy picking targets can quickly take you to D3+1 again, and youre forgoing Harmonius for it.
|
|