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Post by jisidro on May 24, 2018 19:31:51 GMT
Caine2 definitely needs to lose empowered shot even if his shot types change. Pistoleer definitely fits him, but it feels like it would be over the top. I keep wanting to try him in GD or SotT, but I don't get to play enough to spend time on experimenting to that degree. Wow! Are we actually back on topic? ;-) I don't think Pistoleer on Caine2 would be over the top at all. Sure, it means that damage becomes insane when he's B2B, but his biggest problem with the assassination has always been defense, not armor. His feat kills heavies, and warnouns have fewer boxes even with focus. It's the high DEF and terrain that brings casters up to DEF 21 that gives him issues, and pistoleer doesn't help him with defense at all. Plus, it makes that difficult to get gatecrasher assassination an even better payoff in the rare chances you can actually get it. Hmm. But on the other hand, if Caine decided to feat against an ARM20 colossal, and got B2B, he'd do an average of 58.5 damage. Sooo maybe I've got to take back my claim. Yeah, ok, maybe it is over the top. Def 21 is not reachable by most casters... Def 15 in cover on a hill? Not a lot of cover on hills perhaps because it's not legal in SR
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 25, 2018 0:32:26 GMT
Stormclad Mat 7, PS 19, Reach Ironclad Mat 7, PS 18, KD option Hammersmith MAT 7, PS 17, Chain attack Lightweights for sure... For their cost and resilience, yes.
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 8:43:00 GMT
Stormclad Mat 7, PS 19, Reach Ironclad Mat 7, PS 18, KD option Hammersmith MAT 7, PS 17, Chain attack Lightweights for sure... For their cost and resilience, yes. 12/19, 12/18, 11/19 30 boxes each... So not as far from ARM 20 as that. What stats should a Stormclad have?
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 25, 2018 8:51:26 GMT
For their cost and resilience, yes. 12/19, 12/18, 11/19 30 boxes each... So not as far from ARM 20 as that. What stats should a Stormclad have? It is fine, actually, consider one instance of Arcane Shield almost all the times. It is true that our heavies are suffer the durability problem, but that's not so grave as octaviusmaximus said, and in the reality Arcane Shield solves the problem. It is annoying to keep stick with it or bust, though. By the custom of the sum of 30, it is unlikely that Ironclad chassis will get something more from their 12/18 statline, but the chassis itself is indeed fragile. Most anti armor capability on melee needs to be chop down the Juggernaut chassis so dismantle the Ironclad chassis is not an issue(and it is nothing wrong that heavies are killing the heavies in melee). But even on ranged ARM 18 is not gives much protections. We don't have Passage, ARM 20, SPD 6 or something, but we have Arcane Shield. I think that facing ARM 22 heavy or colossal is annoying as hell too unless the player has something to bend it, though. Anyway, it is true that our heavies are indeed fragile or needs to be taxing to be useful. But it is also true that our heavies are quite usable because we can access for Arcane Shield. It is annoying to do, and we can't afford much heavies on a list efficiently, but anyway we can use a few expensive but good heavies well right now and can bring ARM skew so easily that is not bounded to a caster too. It is a two edged blade that is a boon as well as a curse.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 25, 2018 8:58:40 GMT
Yes Arcane Shield will prop up one Heavy warjack, however it's not the panacea it is often stated to be, it does have drawbacks.
- For the most part is dependent on taking a solo that has to take a warjack outside of battlegroup, can make points tight in theme force building - Can only affect one warjack - Can be worked around (dispel, blessed etc)
I am not complaining about Arcane Shield, it is just slightly annoying when people cite Arcane Shield as the answer to everything when the fragility of Cygnars warjacks is mentioned.
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 25, 2018 9:04:23 GMT
Please do note that I am also annoying to see our heavies are Arcane Shield dependent. That's why I don't entirely disregard octavius' arguement; I know there is the reason why he said like that.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 25, 2018 10:36:35 GMT
For their cost and resilience, yes. 12/19, 12/18, 11/19 30 boxes each... So not as far from ARM 20 as that. What stats should a Stormclad have? Quoting stats is not an argument, I feel that you need to say more than that. The Stormclads defence 12 is mostly irrelevant with the ability for people to knockdown and hit Mat 7-11 being quite trivial in the game right now. Armour 19 with a Buckler is ok but not fantastic. The Stormclad is close to being ok, tbh, he's probably a little too expensive because he is paying for Accumulator which is an ability which will only come up in Storm Division. The Ironclads 12/18 is extremely easy to destroy and with Mechaniks being a fuzzy dice add (or at least making jacks more expensive) that Armour 18 with the few boxes in the arms is a death knell a lot of the time. If he was fast and hard hitting to make up for that at his cost it would be fine, but SPD5 with 1" reach is slow and 1 Pow 18 attack is pretty low output in Cygnar. The Hammersmith's 11/19 is ok, but SPD4 with 1" reach is extremely low and the output very much relies on a standard spread of armour rather than an outlier. Hammersmiths are ok. I feel that currently the only melee heavy that is good at killing armour that is worth taking is the Stormclad and even then only very rarely because of his cost. I mean, the main reason that Kraye isn't doing as well as he feels that he should is that he brings no defensive or offensive buffs to Cygnar heavies who really need 1 or Ideally both to survive and do work.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 25, 2018 10:37:51 GMT
Yes Arcane Shield will prop up one Heavy warjack, however it's not the panacea it is often stated to be, it does have drawbacks. - For the most part is dependent on taking a solo that has to take a warjack outside of battlegroup, can make points tight in theme force building - Can only affect one warjack - Can be worked around (dispel, blessed etc) I am not complaining about Arcane Shield, it is just slightly annoying when people cite Arcane Shield as the answer to everything when the fragility of Cygnars warjacks is mentioned. I am very much contemplating just not bringing Junior anymore with the frequency that Arcane shield is utterly irrelevant to the game. Arcane Shield is not saving heavies.
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 11:06:01 GMT
Last game I played against Cygnar this happened... my opponent was in a hurry and pressed too hard with a centurion against Krueger. The following happened: - Tk, face the wrong way and come closer. - Gallows get pushed against a Warden and get punched 3 times at POW 18 (with the stoneshaper bonus) - At this time he is KD but is ARM 22 (shield is off due to facing) as he got smited into a wall but remained in melee with the warden. - Second warder and third warder have to go in and finish the job also at POW 18 and autohits. POW 18 is not fantastic but it took 3 heavies to finish off. ARM 22 is not trivial to finish off. Circle bones does not hit hard but it ilustrates the power of ARM 22. Ofc some lists would trivially kill the poor centurion but then they would likely not have gallows or tk... octaviusmaximus: I was quoting what I see as good stats on heavies... A warden is a fantastic heavy but at DEF 10 ARM 18 he is a good target for any kind of offence. That balances with his huge range of abilities. DEF 12 is very dicey for most of hordes which is base MAT 6, DEF is a MCUH worse stats that ARM but should not be discount or we all end up POW 30 vs DEF 7 ARM 31.
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 25, 2018 11:08:38 GMT
12/19, 12/18, 11/19 30 boxes each... So not as far from ARM 20 as that. What stats should a Stormclad have? Quoting stats is not an argument, I feel that you need to say more than that. The Stormclads defence 12 is mostly irrelevant with the ability for people to knockdown and hit Mat 7-11 being quite trivial in the game right now. Armour 19 with a Buckler is ok but not fantastic. The Stormclad is close to being ok, tbh, he's probably a little too expensive because he is paying for Accumulator which is an ability which will only come up in Storm Division. The Ironclads 12/18 is extremely easy to destroy and with Mechaniks being a fuzzy dice add (or at least making jacks more expensive) that Armour 18 with the few boxes in the arms is a death knell a lot of the time. If he was fast and hard hitting to make up for that at his cost it would be fine, but SPD5 with 1" reach is slow and 1 Pow 18 attack is pretty low output in Cygnar. The Hammersmith's 11/19 is ok, but SPD4 with 1" reach is extremely low and the output very much relies on a standard spread of armour rather than an outlier. Hammersmiths are ok. I feel that currently the only melee heavy that is good at killing armour that is worth taking is the Stormclad and even then only very rarely because of his cost. I mean, the main reason that Kraye isn't doing as well as he feels that he should is that he brings no defensive or offensive buffs to Cygnar heavies who really need 1 or Ideally both to survive and do work. It is true that DEF stat of 12 is not meaningful at all, and ARM 18 is very easy to dismantle, but it doesn't means our heavies are totally useless. Our problem is the mechanism of heavy warjacks, that forces us to stick with Arcane Shield or bust. Yes Arcane Shield will prop up one Heavy warjack, however it's not the panacea it is often stated to be, it does have drawbacks. - For the most part is dependent on taking a solo that has to take a warjack outside of battlegroup, can make points tight in theme force building - Can only affect one warjack - Can be worked around (dispel, blessed etc) I am not complaining about Arcane Shield, it is just slightly annoying when people cite Arcane Shield as the answer to everything when the fragility of Cygnars warjacks is mentioned. I am very much contemplating just not bringing Junior anymore with the frequency that Arcane shield is utterly irrelevant to the game. Arcane Shield is not saving heavies. It does actually. The real problem is we can't have multiple instance of it, and we can't save our heavies, or expect them to be earn their points without it, but ARM 21/22 is not a joke. It may bypassed by some tricks, but how much defensive tricks are unbeatable? Passage is no in use against ranged weapons with Damage Type: Magical, and is do nothing against spells and melee as well. DEF 14 is easily beaten by boosted attack roll, which is available for every single warjacks and warbeasts. ARM 20 is actually a standard stat for the expected enemy heavy so it is something wrong if you can't deal with them. In the reality, if a target is given, only a few things can safe from the most answers we can raise. Almost all tricks have a solution or more. Don't expect something to make things totally invincible. Just expect something that hard to face and makes things work for their points.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 25, 2018 13:13:38 GMT
Last game I played against Cygnar this happened... my opponent was in a hurry and pressed too hard with a centurion against Krueger. The following happened: - Tk, face the wrong way and come closer. - Gallows get pushed against a Warden and get punched 3 times at POW 18 (with the stoneshaper bonus) - At this time he is KD but is ARM 22 (shield is off due to facing) as he got smited into a wall but remained in melee with the warden. - Second warder and third warder have to go in and finish the job also at POW 18 and autohits. POW 18 is not fantastic but it took 3 heavies to finish off. ARM 22 is not trivial to finish off. Circle bones does not hit hard but it ilustrates the power of ARM 22. Ofc some lists would trivially kill the poor centurion but then they would likely not have gallows or tk... octaviusmaximus : I was quoting what I see as good stats on heavies... A warden is a fantastic heavy but at DEF 10 ARM 18 he is a good target for any kind of offence. That balances with his huge range of abilities. DEF 12 is very dicey for most of hordes which is base MAT 6, DEF is a MCUH worse stats that ARM but should not be discount or we all end up POW 30 vs DEF 7 ARM 31. That's just bad play by your opponent, they should have TKd it around and further away and just ignored it. Also why did your opponent not shoot it with a Woldwyrd? In the back it gets 4 dice on its first 2 shots, even at dice off 10 that's 4 damage on average dice, then about 2 more damage for the third shot. that way you have taken off about a third of the Centurions boxes, making it much easier to deal with when it comes back in the next turn.
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 14:20:37 GMT
That's just bad play by your opponent, they should have TKd it around and further away and just ignored it. Also why did your opponent not shoot it with a Woldwyrd? In the back it gets 4 dice on its first 2 shots, even at dice off 10 that's 4 damage on average dice, then about 2 more damage for the third shot. that way you have taken off about a third of the Centurions boxes, making it much easier to deal with when it comes back in the next turn. [/p][/quote] I was the circle player. I can't ignore something that keeps me from scoring, that kind of the whole point of scenario and centurions... And Kraye has jumpstart so turning it around is just asking for feat + jumpstart + centurion in the face. I was just illustrating how much I had to dedicate to killing a heavy with AS. The Wyrds went off to shoot something else, can't really remember what.
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Post by jagius021 on May 25, 2018 15:26:07 GMT
That's just bad play by your opponent, they should have TKd it around and further away and just ignored it. Also why did your opponent not shoot it with a Woldwyrd? In the back it gets 4 dice on its first 2 shots, even at dice off 10 that's 4 damage on average dice, then about 2 more damage for the third shot. that way you have taken off about a third of the Centurions boxes, making it much easier to deal with when it comes back in the next turn. [/p][/quote] I was the circle player. I can't ignore something that keeps me from scoring, that kind of the whole point of scenario and centurions... And Kraye has jumpstart so turning it around is just asking for feat + jumpstart + centurion in the face. I was just illustrating how much I had to dedicate to killing a heavy with AS. The Wyrds went off to shoot something else, can't really remember what.[/quote] Whaaaat, you mean you don't play in the imaginary place with no scenario or terrain and everything is in a vacuum? How ever will we speak with such certainty that someone is playing wrong if we cant reduce it down to nothing? It sounds like you played it as well as could be played, removing the shield bonus from a centurion is super important. And you're almost always going to have to use heavies to deal with them, as infantry won't get the charge on them.
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Post by darkangeldentist on May 25, 2018 16:22:49 GMT
As worthy a topic as it is discussing the state of Cygnar heavies, it probably deserves it's own thread. This one has enough scope for derailment just with the option to expand the list of casters people want to see work done to.
There hasn't been any discussion for Sturgis yet, which I find odd because although he's one of the most agreed upon bad casters in the faction, there isn't a lot of interest in talking about what's wrong with him. Is he redeemable or are people just writing him off as something that's probably better off deleted from the faction?
I don't understand why he's quite so hated, his spell list is solid (although the number of upkeeps makes him focus starved most turns) and he's got a survivable stat-line with a lot of hit boxes making him one of our tougher warcasters, he's mobile with his chain-attack and teleport and can chuck out a lot of attacks when the opportunity presents itself. So what does he need?
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 25, 2018 17:32:29 GMT
As worthy a topic as it is discussing the state of Cygnar heavies, it probably deserves it's own thread. This one has enough scope for derailment just with the option to expand the list of casters people want to see work done to. There hasn't been any discussion for Sturgis yet, which I find odd because although he's one of the most agreed upon bad casters in the faction, there isn't a lot of interest in talking about what's wrong with him. Is he redeemable or are people just writing him off as something that's probably better off deleted from the faction? I don't understand why he's quite so hated, his spell list is solid (although the number of upkeeps makes him focus starved most turns) and he's got a survivable stat-line with a lot of hit boxes making him one of our tougher warcasters, he's mobile with his chain-attack and teleport and can chuck out a lot of attacks when the opportunity presents itself. So what does he need? The answer is simple; he is simply inferior to the other similar casters. There are already the better picks with similar group of spells - Stryker1, Caine1, and Maddox. Yeah, he has an advantage over them. His own melee prowess would be the advantage of him over the others. But the problem is, it is not noticeable, resulting him simply inferior to them. As a warcaster, the head of the list, go melee is too risky job. So if a warcaster's advantage is his melee prowess, he needs to end the game, at least able to dish out much enemies in melee and very survivable. But he does neither.
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