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Post by jansuza on May 10, 2018 12:23:19 GMT
Hi guys. I've been feeling for a while now that some match-ups are really hard for us in live scenarios when we go second. Those are two things we have no control over, so I would like to talk about what we can do on the table to mitigate the hard times.
I don't want to go into my lists as I would rather see what people would do in general, but take as an example this Maelok list:
Maelok Soul Slave Wrastler SpitterGatorman Witch Doctor Thrullg 3 Gatorman Husks Totem Hunter Full Gatorman Posse w void leech Full Gatorman Posse w void leech Full Gatorman Posse Min Croak Raiders
Seeing a few of the husks and raiders out for another unit of posse is quite often a thing as well.
So in this scenario, the Gatorman player goes first. Their deployment is 2" up from the theme. The Witch Doctor casts death ride and they all run max distance forward, so they are all 21" up the board, and threatening 13" on the next turn.
So the way I see it, we move up to just over their charge range, so that next turn we can make a play for the zones to make sure we stay in the game, or else he will beat you turn 3 without even batting an eyelid.
Maelok's next turn he feats, and all the gators run up to engage, with the husks right in the front to make it really difficult to unjam as well.
So what do we do from here? Attempting to unjam and getting into the zones means that you're not going to kill enough to survive the reprisal, but going for the attrition quite likely means that you can't even make it into the zones on his turn 2, and he scores two, then has a very easy next turn to score another three.
Last night I played a game with Abby 2 and got to do an alpha strike where everything in her entire list could attack at near-peak efficiency on her feat turn, and not only could I not make it into the zones, but his retaliation the next turn wiped out most of my list anyway.
So what do we do in these situations where we go second, and we have to run into the teeth of the enemy to stay relevant in scenario? What list would you use for it?
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on May 10, 2018 12:49:12 GMT
I haven't faced Gators yet, but looking at your described gamestate I would try to tank them, Thagrosh1 CotD is good at long grind and cant take some alpha.
But probably best sollution will be primal terror list with Ammok. He can strip incorp from many models and Ogrun list can have solid volume of strong attacks.
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Post by jansuza on May 10, 2018 13:11:57 GMT
Thanks Whydak. Whilst Thags is debatably our tankiest caster, I can't help but feel as if it is still a flawed idea to just run into the zone and hope to live. Gators have a way to drop two or three of the beast's armour and defense by 2 with mortality, and gators can handle armour 19/20. Also, if you lose the beast you can't use the feat to bring them back either as everything has snacking. I was waiting for all of the suggestions for Anamag in PT to come through, but I'm rather hoping we can find a solution that doesn't involve me buying a whole new list
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Post by voidbender on May 10, 2018 14:04:42 GMT
With Gators and the budding MoW, Primal Terrors, and possibly Crucible Guard, for the sake of the game I'm really hoping that heavy infantry is not the best answer to heavy infantry.
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Post by davycannonhound on May 11, 2018 3:35:54 GMT
With Gators and the budding MoW, Primal Terrors, and possibly Crucible Guard, for the sake of the game I'm really hoping that heavy infantry is not the best answer to heavy infantry. I feel like swordsman are a good answer to heavy infantry.
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Post by snotling on May 11, 2018 6:10:17 GMT
Hmmm. I had good effect with abby2 against that, could you post your list?
But I had a really dumb idea vs melee multiewound infantry lists lately: lylyth3 with a unit of archers,two units of swordmen and the bfs. Shoot them all stationary and run two units of weaponmasters in front of them for next turn. Probably bad, but i still want to try it. XD
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Post by jansuza on May 11, 2018 11:47:49 GMT
Swordsmen aren't particularly great into the gator spam I was describing. If your opponent staggers their models, you'll be lucky to get three, and the retaliation quite easily takes them out. It also doesn't deal with the problem I'm describing which is how to stay relevant in scenario when you're going second.
My Abby list is:
Abyy2 Succubus 2 Carniveans Proteus Wasps Raek 2 Shredders Seraph 2 Forsaken 2 Spell Martyrs Valkyries
I feel like the problem isn't so much the damage output, but how to remain relevant in scenario.
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Post by apoc2148 on May 11, 2018 12:16:19 GMT
Swordsmen aren't particularly great into the gator spam I was describing. If your opponent staggers their models, you'll be lucky to get three, and the retaliation quite easily takes them out. It also doesn't deal with the problem I'm describing which is how to stay relevant in scenario when you're going second. My Abby list is: Abyy2 Succubus 2 Carniveans Proteus Wasps Raek 2 Shredders Seraph 2 Forsaken 2 Spell Martyrs Valkyries I feel like the problem isn't so much the damage output, but how to remain relevant in scenario. You've got a very low model count list vs a surprisingly fast high model count list (+2" deployment from theme). The Maelok list you have posted above has 33 models including the caster while the eAby list you have only has 20 models 4 of which will be hanging back behind everything. So in essence you have 16 models to deal with 30 models (17 of which are the front line GMP). Low model count lists really need to be efficient at piece trading so that you don't lose scenario presence. To accomplish this task I'm starting to shift my lists more towards a combined melee/ranged list when I'm building low model count lists. Any AD unit with shooting (croak raiders, striders+ua, hexhunters+bayal, teraphs) or generally fast units (raptors, grots, raeks, neraphs/angelius) that you can use as a first wave to help stymie you're opponents approach while allowing you safer positions to place your high value pieces behind for your counter punch. Since mk3 seems to be returning to box/arm spam with multiwound med base infantry and jacks I've found it harder to build an effective beast heavy melee oriented list that won't falter when pitted against GMP spam or equivalent. And with the current version of Bastions in the CID I feel it will get even worse. . .
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 11, 2018 12:35:10 GMT
Swordsmen don't seem like the best answer in my opinion. Arm 22, 8hp Gatormen are pretty obnoxious. Dice off 11 you would need 3 swordsmen per gator.
Scytheans I think would be a fairly equal trade. Grievous would stop the 33% chance of surviving. With a basic damage buff you're not but dice off 3.
I agree that Thagrosh 1 would be a pretty decent way to deal with it. Whatever you do send in to trade first can just be feated back.
Anamag will be a good option eventually.
Blight Storm is still an option if you can put out a ton of terrible quality attacks. Archers and blightblades can both put out a ton of useless pow attacks that, when hitting a model in Blightstorm, will do 1 auto point of damage.
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Post by snotling on May 11, 2018 13:03:31 GMT
The plan is not to charge into maeloks feat. The plan is to stationary all/most of them and then sit it out. The swordmen charge the turn after. Maybe its still not enough damage, but I will try it at least once XD. Warlords may be good, because they oneshot arm20 gators and dont allow tough...
And stationary gators don't clear zones very well xD.
Also: +1to the starting roll helps with not going second xD.
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xsv
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 2
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Post by xsv on May 17, 2018 14:20:52 GMT
Soooo ... Maelok is probably one of the best list in the game right now, this shit is not ok. That being said, PT has a good answer into it. Ammok will stop him from alphaing your whole army. Fyanna2 is a good drop into it, making rotwings def16 is a real problem for maelok rerolls are good but vs def 14 ( counting mortality ) you have a serious jam. The list will hit hard enough to counterpunch him and Golab is a monster in the match up, he has no way to deal with the bird with admo. So Yeah you can try it i'm having solid game with it. It's a good 55/45 for us I think but it will still be a very hard match-up.
Any kind of trying to tank him, either pthag or pabbsy will not work 2-3 mortality a turn is way too much.
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Post by jansuza on May 17, 2018 16:28:59 GMT
Thanks XSV. I think you may be right. Sadly, outside of the new PT, it doesn't seem like there's much scope to deal with quite a few problems for us.
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Post by snotling on May 18, 2018 11:23:54 GMT
Soooo ... Maelok is probably one of the best list in the game right now, this shit is not ok. That being said, PT has a good answer into it. Ammok will stop him from alphaing your whole army. Fyanna2 is a good drop into it, making rotwings def16 is a real problem for maelok rerolls are good but vs def 14 ( counting mortality ) you have a serious jam. The list will hit hard enough to counterpunch him and Golab is a monster in the match up, he has no way to deal with the bird with admo. So Yeah you can try it i'm having solid game with it. It's a good 55/45 for us I think but it will still be a very hard match-up. Any kind of trying to tank him, either pthag or pabbsy will not work 2-3 mortality a turn is way too much. How is Maelok alphaing you? The list has 12-13 Threat if he doesnt play for re-rolls. And we have a faction that gets to 14-16 or even more threatrange quite easy.
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xsv
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 2
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Post by xsv on May 18, 2018 12:24:37 GMT
snotling, well 13 is a LOT. Especially for a list (maelok) that asks for your heaviest hitter to do any meaningful damage. That means you need scythean or carnies, Angels and neraphs will not do enough, a furied neraph will be dice -2 which means you kill 2, 3 if all stars aligned and you are super lucky. If you opponnent spread meaningfully you will not be able to do damage with flyers. So back to scythean and carni, being 10 and 9 threat base, you will need 2 threat buff to get there before them. Forget eabbsy you will never proc alpha hunter in that matchup, and Slipstream is great but it's really hard to do more than 2 SS a turn. So if you throw away 2 heavy and you opponnent place really bad maybe you can alpha 8-9 crocs, and you will not survive the counterpunch. One of the big problem playing vs this list is that it is basically impossible to jam it, due to incoropreal, they can go sooo deep in your lines and stacked up with the -def -arm it does get super complicated. @ Jansuza, I don't think it's sad at all that PT is that answer, PT is a great new tool for us. We did not have the huge punch list now we have a real answer to 9 slayer, khador jack spam, or maelok, to name a few. But the list is not only that it's also a scenario monster having HM in free slots. Play it man you'll see it's great, I see it as our new All-comer, just have to find a list that cover PT weaknesses. Guns to name it. Personally I really like the breeze of fresh air, having played Oracles in 80% of my games in mk3 was beginning to wear me off and I've been playing legion for 10 years. Also let's be honest all oracles lists are basically the same 90 pts of BG /or BE some support and shuffle casters zzzZZzZZ.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 18, 2018 12:50:37 GMT
"easily" still requires a lot of dedication of resources. Abby can't really just hexbolt a gator and one shot it. So Alpha hunter is going to need say shots from the Seraph. Then you have to not accidentally kill said target. Then the gatormen have to not have run to the other side of the zone to block you out (seeing as they have no real reason not to run both turns). We don't really have side step or overtake to get kills and move into the zone. Angelius would probably work somewhat but you're still hitting only straight dice on the 1 armor piercing attack. After that you are dice off 6-8 on subsequent attacks. Assuming Maelok feats.
So if we're talking land sharks yes, 14" threat is possible on Scytheans which I think would be a good answer. But they only just got changed and I don't think people are warming up to them. But even then that's only 2 at that threat range because of slipstream limitation. Unless you take a bloodseer. (also not impossible but 8 points is not too cheap)
It also depends on the table. So quite a lot of variables.
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