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Post by Charistoph on May 16, 2018 13:33:48 GMT
In my humble opinion if i was PP i would not personally go after recasters. Its an expensive hobby with an ever changing meta and id personally just like to assume the position of "if you have the money support the company, but I'd rather you buy recasts if your financial situation is bad enough" For those doing one offs for themselves and their friends here and there, I wouldn't expect PP to be going after them, as the lawyer fees would be more than the profit loss. However, someone with a website promoting such sales, and within the copyright law range of the US and appropriate treaty partners, that would be a different story.
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Post by gobber on May 27, 2018 5:40:39 GMT
There's been a renaissance happening in the terrain and printing community in the last two months because of star wars legion. The results are just jaw-droppingly beautiful and it's just been made in the last two months (and print speed is a pretty severe constraint on what's possible in that time!). FFG has thus far only released the core set, Veers and snowtroopers, but folks are already selling full clone and battledroid armies... Anyhoo, this thread got me investigating 3d scanning further. It's surprisingly accessible. I found an art studio in the area that sounds like it'll scan things for $25-40 per model. However, it seems an iphone camera and software such as agisoft photoscan is all that's really necessary. I'm trying to decide whether the $129 for a license is worth it to try that, but Pierre-Anton at sketchfab had already scanned the mountain king I mentioned earlier in the thread. This led to Runty here: Runty (he's just slightly underscaled but I couldn't bear to stop the print, big brother beefy is still printing) cost about $3 in filament, $3 in filler primer, and maybe $1 of electricity and other minor costs. I didn't sand him at all. He was printed on an unmodified $150 Anet A8 (if I didn't have a printer, I could get it printed at the local library for an additional $2). This has pretty huge implications for long term pricing of the miniatures hobby that'll be important for PP to navigate; making up lost revenue through inflow of players who had stayed away due to price barriers seems like the way forward. I'd love to see a system where the digital files are sold as an alternative for people who are able to print at home. I'm really just scratching the surface of what's possible here; with a bit of practice in mesh editors reposing this dude wouldn't be at all difficult. The potential of splicing models together makes the sky the limit for conversions. For instance, I'd love to see if I can make a blighted mountain king out of this dude and rescaled back spines of a blightbringer. Future-PP could even lean in to this by selling conversion packs like skins in video games. I'd pay a good chunk of change for a "blighted kriels" zip file of headswaps for infantry, conversion packs for multikit beasts, and a few custom sculpted beasts and casters. If PP doesn't do that themselves, I guarantee it will eventually show up on shapeways or an independent site selling "warped monstrous tribes compatible with 40mm miniatures."
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on May 27, 2018 7:28:24 GMT
I do think the industry is going to have to adapt to the maker movement as it becomes (is becoming, in some places has already become?) more and more accessible.
It's really similar in my mind to the music industry and Napster (and subsequently file-sharing in general). The industry is changing, and calls to loyalty / integrity can only slow change so much. Consider how hard the music industry fought file-sharing, they even managed to kill Napster, but ultimately they couldn't win the war and had to adapt. Now they sell their music through services such as spotify / iStore etc. They save a fortune on production costs (no need to print CDs, and more importantly no need for a CD-case or printing the covers and booklets) and on distribution costs, while simply reaping the profits for the digital sales. It was a massive market disruptor, and we're still not sure how much of the market will survive the next decade, but kicking and screaming the market is being forced to adapt.
Miniatures are in the early stages of the same type of transition. Calls to legality and ethics have shown to be very poor weapons when trying to combat convenience and price. Add in customisability, and the fight is pretty much lost before it gets underway imo. A new model that involves licensing (at a reasonable rate, remember the price issue) maker files for private use is my first thought as to how PP (or other players in the same space) could adapt to the new marketplace. Your FLGS would also need to adapt, possibly by getting their own 3D-printers (when they become a bit faster) and charging customers for the use of those, potentially streamlining the whole prole process for customers.
Change is here. Railing against it is not only futile but self-destructive. Just as the music industry learned, it's time to adapt or die.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 27, 2018 8:45:25 GMT
gobber it's interesting to see the results of a 3D printer, along with a cost breakdown, and like you said 3D printing will have to be addressed by model companies at some point. However PP have not yet given or sold permission to 3D print their intellectual property, if I were you I would throw Runty in the bin, because it is theft at the end of the day. Edit, the writing may be on the wall for going the way unded describes, however that does not grant anyone Carte Blanche to print 3D models in the meantime simply because that's the way things may be headed, it's still theft until PP sell permission to do it
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on May 27, 2018 9:12:53 GMT
gobber it's interesting to see the results of a 3D printer, along with a cost breakdown, and like you said 3D printing will have to be addressed by model companies at some point. However PP have not yet given or sold permission to 3D print their intellectual property, if I were you I would throw Runty in the bin, because it is theft at the end of the day. Edit, the writing may be on the wall for going the way unded describes, however that does not grant anyone Carte Blanche to print 3D models in the meantime simply because that's the way things may be headed, it's still theft until PP sell permission to do it You take a really hard-line stance on IP, Cygnarguy. As an academic I appreciate it (we live and die on our IP) but I’m curious how far that stretches. Have you really never downloaded a music mp3? Have you never watched a torrented / streamed video? Episode of Game of Thrones? I ask because I think you’re holding people to an unreasonable standard. I myself, wholly dependent on the integrity of IP professionally, would not pass the test I set above. Would you?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 27, 2018 9:27:37 GMT
gobber it's interesting to see the results of a 3D printer, along with a cost breakdown, and like you said 3D printing will have to be addressed by model companies at some point. However PP have not yet given or sold permission to 3D print their intellectual property, if I were you I would throw Runty in the bin, because it is theft at the end of the day. Edit, the writing may be on the wall for going the way unded describes, however that does not grant anyone Carte Blanche to print 3D models in the meantime simply because that's the way things may be headed, it's still theft until PP sell permission to do it You take a really hard-line stance on IP, Cygnarguy. As an academic I appreciate it (we live and die on our IP) but I’m curious how far that stretches. Have you really never downloaded a music mp3? Have you never watched a torrented / streamed video? Episode of Game of Thrones? I ask because I think you’re holding people to an unreasonable standard. I myself, wholly dependent on the integrity of IP professionally, would not pass the test I set above. Would you? When I was younger I sometimes streamed movies illegally, now I will purchase them or wait for them to be on Netflix. Don't really listen to music so never felt the compulsion to download it illegally. I admit it is probably an unreasonably high standard, and I can be fallible as much as the next person, but I think it's worth trying to stick to so as to not harm the company who make the game we love Edit, I admit change like you described may be inevitable, but in the meantime I think we should all give PP our money so they do reach that point
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Post by gobber on May 27, 2018 9:36:41 GMT
gobber it's interesting to see the results of a 3D printer, along with a cost breakdown, and like you said 3D printing will have to be addressed by model companies at some point. However PP have not yet given or sold permission to 3D print their intellectual property, if I were you I would throw Runty in the bin, because it is theft at the end of the day. Edit, the writing may be on the wall for going the way unded describes, however that does not grant anyone Carte Blanche to print 3D models in the meantime simply because that's the way things may be headed, it's still theft until PP sell permission to do it As this was created for the purposes of demonstrating the possibilities of the technology and its potential impacts on the industry, I'd argue it falls under the nonprofit educational purposes provision of fair use in US IP law which allows for use of copyrighted work when there's a transformative aspect that adds value (in this case, the above insights). I have no desire to mess with their IP and will not be distributing them!
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 27, 2018 9:39:02 GMT
gobber it's interesting to see the results of a 3D printer, along with a cost breakdown, and like you said 3D printing will have to be addressed by model companies at some point. However PP have not yet given or sold permission to 3D print their intellectual property, if I were you I would throw Runty in the bin, because it is theft at the end of the day. Edit, the writing may be on the wall for going the way unded describes, however that does not grant anyone Carte Blanche to print 3D models in the meantime simply because that's the way things may be headed, it's still theft until PP sell permission to do it As this was created for the purposes of demonstrating the possibilities of the technology and its potential impacts on the industry, I'd argue it falls under the nonprofit educational purposes provision of fair use in US IP law which allows for use of copyrighted work when there's a transformative aspect that adds value (in this case, the above insights). I have no desire to mess with their IP and will not be distributing them! Now you have demonstrated that will you destroy it? Or put it on the table? Edit, or send it to PP to show them what can be achieved with a 3D printer
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Post by gobber on May 27, 2018 10:02:31 GMT
As this was created for the purposes of demonstrating the possibilities of the technology and its potential impacts on the industry, I'd argue it falls under the nonprofit educational purposes provision of fair use in US IP law which allows for use of copyrighted work when there's a transformative aspect that adds value (in this case, the above insights). I have no desire to mess with their IP and will not be distributing them! Now you have demonstrated that will you destroy it? Or put it on the table? Edit, or send it to PP to show them what can be achieved with a 3D printer The thought was to send them a message similar to the above. I really want them to keep making great stuff and see this as an opportunity as much as an oncoming storm to navigate. In all likelihood he'll just stay planted on the shelf.
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Post by NephMakes on May 27, 2018 13:19:29 GMT
I do think the industry is going to have to adapt to the maker movement as it becomes (is becoming, in some places has already become?) more and more accessible. [...] It's really similar in my mind to the music industry One option is to specialize on models that are higher quality than you can get with a 3D print. A lot of the prints I've seen have a tell-tale "layering" that's a deal-breaker for me. It'd take so much effort to clean them up for painting that I'd rather just buy a high-quality model like PP's recent resin/metal figures. But I'd be open buying a cheap (licensed) 3D print if I just wanted to put an unpainted model on the table to play in the meantime. Or to use as pieces for conversions.
I guess the parallel with the music industry here would be vinyl records, which have had a resurgence in the digital age. Apparently a substantial proportion of music listeners like the physicality of the vinyl format, which also happens to be very bootleg-resistant. CDs, on the other hand, are just digital files on physical media. Both can get much higher audio quality than you'd normally get streaming and listening through earbuds or over bluetooth. That matters to some people.
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Post by gobber on May 27, 2018 14:49:38 GMT
A lot of the prints I've seen have a tell-tale "layering" that's a deal-breaker for me. It'd take so much effort to clean them up for painting that I'd rather just buy a high-quality model like PP's recent resin/metal figures. FWIW Filler primer is truly wondrous at hiding striations with no effort (it's extra thick primer that pools in the gaps like nuln oil). Thick basecoats also help. Runty was printed on the cheapest printer on the market (not even at its highest resolution) and hasn't been touched by sandpaper, yet the striations are only noticeable on his shoulder, the front few rocks, and the whelps. I probably could have hid two thirds of the remainder with half an hour of sanding and dremel work.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on May 27, 2018 21:34:53 GMT
The point about the low-cost barrier to 3D printing revolutionizing the hobby industry is important.
Companies are going to have to adapt their business model or perish. I can see a future in which the product is the game system,fiction, merchandise, and events, and relevant to 3D printing, model rendition files.
Perhaps each file could come with a unique purchase barcode or tracker, stamped on the bottom of the base. Make a rule that all entered models require it, or old legacy PP casts, in order to enter a PP event.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 28, 2018 9:06:37 GMT
It's a very good point about the 3d printing. I suspect it'll end up as a franchise thing rather than a print-at-home thing; gaming stores will invest in a high-resolution printer (Resin at 25 micron detail, for example, is achievable with a desktop model) and then pay for a license to print Company X's stuff. I guess print times would be the issue in that regard; how long did it take to print the mountain king, gobber ? It might currently be unfeasible for large scales. It'll be interesting to see which company adopts it first, and what they do with their prices. I imagine it will be a new company that does it initially; 3d printing in house until they're established, and then switching to franchise when production demand increases enough to be sustainable. EDIT: No, wait, that's not true. The best starting platform would be Black Anchor Heavy Industries. It's an already established brand making lower demand, higher margin models. The larger size of the models means you can better utilise a major advantage of printing over casting; they can be made hollow, reducing the cost of materials, weight, and production time. A follow up target would be character jacks and beasts. They already use 3d printing for rapid prototyping, so I'd be surprised if they weren't looking into this
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Post by gobber on May 28, 2018 10:31:34 GMT
It's a very good point about the 3d printing. I suspect it'll end up as a franchise thing rather than a print-at-home thing; gaming stores will invest in a high-resolution printer (Resin at 25 micron detail, for example, is achievable with a desktop model) and then pay for a license to print Company X's stuff. I guess print times would be the issue in that regard; how long did it take to print the mountain king, gobber ? It might currently be unfeasible for large scales. It'll be interesting to see which company adopts it first, and what they do with their prices. I imagine it will be a new company that does it initially; 3d printing in house until they're established, and then switching to franchise when production demand increases enough to be sustainable. EDIT: No, wait, that's not true. The best starting platform would be Black Anchor Heavy Industries. It's an already established brand making lower demand, higher margin models. The larger size of the models means you can better utilise a major advantage of printing over casting; they can be made hollow, reducing the cost of materials, weight, and production time. A follow up target would be character jacks and beasts. They already use 3d printing for rapid prototyping, so I'd be surprised if they weren't looking into this About 24 hours at my printer's default speed (30mm/s). Double that if I had printed at .1mm layer height rather than .2, so .025 is theoretically an eightfold increase. You can drastically dial the speed up (more than tripling it) at the cost of quality; higher end printers (or low-end ones with printed upgrades) can handle somewhat higher speeds without losing as much quality. Resin printers are a pretty different process than filament so I'm not sure how much of that would translate. SLA resin printers trace a line with a laser so are probably pretty similar, but DLP printers use light from an lcd screen to cure an entire layer at once which theoretically sounds like it could result in a drastically faster print time down the road. I was thinking that something along those lines might end up as a possible solution to the BAHI price disparity outside of the states; if they can get outsource production to local printing services then they can get around the customs issue that's causing such pain.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 28, 2018 16:56:05 GMT
Actually if you had the original cads you probably could have had even better quality cause I know some of it gets lost in the scanning transition.
Btw does anyone know a good 3d cad freeware. I want to make terrain
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