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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 11, 2018 17:45:25 GMT
There is no excuse for knowingly buying re-cast models The whole point of this debate is that you can't unilaterally apply your First World views and morals to everyone across the globe equally. What would be a good excuse then?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 11, 2018 18:11:52 GMT
What would be a good excuse then? Lack of availability of the genuine product (seller won't or can't ship to your country) No acceptable way of paying for the genuine product (seller won't or can't accept the Credit Card issued in your country). These are just two example that I have experienced personally. To be fair, I haven't had this problem with Privateer Press products, the Only online seller that wouldn't take my Credit Card due to my country of origin was Miniature Market, fortunately there were other options so I never felt the need to go with bootleggers (but that was enough for me to discard Miniature Market as an entity I would do business with in the future). But I did ran into this problem with things ranging from video games, music and movies, all the way to things I actually needed to secure my future like Collage Text Books and Manuals.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 11, 2018 18:59:47 GMT
What would be a good excuse then? Lack of availability of the genuine product (seller won't or can't ship to your country) No acceptable way of paying for the genuine product (seller won't or can't accept the Credit Card issued in your country). These are just two example that I have experienced personally. To be fair, I haven't had this problem with Privateer Press products, the Only online seller that wouldn't take my Credit Card due to my country of origin was Miniature Market, fortunately there were other options so I never felt the need to go with bootleggers (but that was enough for me to discard Miniature Market as an entity I would do business with in the future). But I did ran into this problem with things ranging from video games, music and movies, all the way to things I actually needed to secure my future like Collage Text Books and Manuals. Warmachine is not an essential commodity in any way, if you cannot get it in your country then I am sorry for you, but it still does not excuse buying re cast models
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 11, 2018 19:16:42 GMT
Warmachine is not an essential commodity in any way, if you cannot get it in your country then I am sorry for you, but it still does not excuse buying re cast models Times like these I'm really glad we have access to your particular world view, how else would we be enlighten by your superior moral hegemony? I feel so fortunate.
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Post by elladan52 on May 11, 2018 19:19:23 GMT
Warmachine is not an essential commodity in any way, if you cannot get it in your country then I am sorry for you, but it still does not excuse buying re cast models Times like these I'm really glad we have access to your particular world view, how else would we be enlighten by your superior moral hegemony? I feel so fortunate. So your world view is that if you can't get it legitimately then anything goes? Is this a general thing, or just warmachine?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 11, 2018 20:18:19 GMT
Times like these I'm really glad we have access to your particular world view, how else would we be enlighten by your superior moral hegemony? I feel so fortunate. So your world view is that if you can't get it legitimately then anything goes? Is this a general thing, or just warmachine? My world view is more nuanced than a Yes or No answer. And I'm beyond talking about Warmachine. I grew up in a Pre-NAFTA Mexico (the amount of knockoff plastic crap we got here before NAFTA would make you laugh). People here make a living selling knockoff Spiderman Piñatas in their friendly neighborhood Party Store, and you can bet they're not licensed. If my 3 year old niece wants a Spiderman Piñata for her birthday party, she's getting a Spiderman Piñata for her birthday party, not a lecture on the IP Laws of developed countries.
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Post by NephMakes on May 11, 2018 21:04:06 GMT
I imagine that in a country where it is hard or impossible to purchase a hobby company's product, the company might turn a blind eye to bootlegging there if it helps establish a community and demand for their product. See it as free marketing, if you will. So that when barriers to trade change and it does become feasible to sell in that market, some of the marketing groundwork has already been done.
Also, it seems like reasonable people can disagree about these issues. Can we try to keep it civil? Please?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 11, 2018 21:37:50 GMT
Warmachine is not an essential commodity in any way, if you cannot get it in your country then I am sorry for you, but it still does not excuse buying re cast models Times like these I'm really glad we have access to your particular world view, how else would we be enlighten by your superior moral hegemony? I feel so fortunate. You're welcome
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Post by elshinare on May 12, 2018 5:47:52 GMT
Ooh I have a question. Can I make copies of my models for my own personal use? Say I want to field nine slayers. I buy one, then make eight copies of it. Morally, it obviously seems a bit shady... the appropriate way to show PP how much I love their slayers is to actually buy all nine. By only buying one, I am only paying once but benefitting eightfold. However, I am not buying from a pirate reseller, and I am not selling anything for my own profit either. So saying I'm not allowed to copy my own slayer seems to be like saying that if I bought a music CD, I'm not allowed to copy it onto my computer... I have to pay for a new copy on itunes. See what I mean? Edit to add: I have actually done something similar to this in real life - not actually copying any parts, but basically making one model out of three. I bought a pack of the Circle Satyr heavy kit, and I assembled one as a standard Shadowhorn. Then I took the Riphorn parts, and scratch-built a body for it, so then I had a Riphorn too. Finally, I took the Gnarlhorn parts, and made them into a Brennos conversion. So I only bought one Satyr kit, but ended up with three Satyrs with all-PP parts. To me, that feels morally just - but what is really the difference between the two different actions? according to PP...50% pp parts, therefore tournament legal. although you can buy the frames separately.
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Post by elshinare on May 12, 2018 6:07:19 GMT
So your world view is that if you can't get it legitimately then anything goes? Is this a general thing, or just warmachine? My world view is more nuanced than a Yes or No answer. And I'm beyond talking about Warmachine. I grew up in a Pre-NAFTA Mexico (the amount of knockoff plastic crap we got here before NAFTA would make you laugh). People here make a living selling knockoff Spiderman Piñatas in their friendly neighborhood Party Store, and you can bet they're not licensed. If my 3 year old niece wants a Spiderman Piñata for her birthday party, she's getting a Spiderman Piñata for her birthday party, not a lecture on the IP Laws of developed countries. Not going to pick on you. But, world views are not a legitimate argument. "your moral compass points one way because you have it easier"...please, I work making less than a lot of people in my area, and I won't get in to the political discussions...but I save up money to buy what I can, either from a FLGS, second hand market, or directly from PP. To buy $300 in models it takes me 6 months. If you want to buy illegal products, and steal from the game designers, that's on you or whoever. Because it is theft. You think it's not? Okay, let's throw a hypothesis out there. Let's say, for example, you make something completely original, a shirt that by itself can keep your body comfortable No matter the weather. You sell it for $200 (just a number, not realistic). Your income after taxes paying employees and tech staff is $1000 a day (again just a number). Someone figures out how to make that same shirt, but, they sell it for $50. Your income drops to $200 a day. They use the same technique and everything, maybe just different manufacturing methods, but it can be side by side the same shirt. You have to lay off workers and other staff, and take a huge paycut yourself. But you do not know that there are people making knockoffs of your product. You think that there is less demand but you see more people wearing the shirt but you know that you do not make the shirt in the colors you are seeing around, or the amount of shirts. Isn't that taking money from you via illicit means? In other words theft? Imagine if a game designer sees more models, but the weight and material were wrong, but everything else is exactly the same. What if they decide to no longer make the game? And the secondary market dries up because people are wary of forgeries being included in sets? what if you have $3000 in legitimate models, but no one around plays anymore, and no one will buy them for aforementioned reasons...Now you have $3000 in paperweight and garbage because forgeries and recasts drove everyone including the designers away from the game. Oh sure maybe someone years down the road will buy them, but the reality is probably not. Okay, wall of text is done, time for me to sleep.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on May 12, 2018 19:19:25 GMT
Let’s keep this clean.
There’s a reasonable argument that making a legitimate product available at a reasonable price decreases piracy, and that if there is an insufficient supply (or something makes the legitimate supply undesirable by the market segment) , piracy will increase.
Calling a spade a spade, recasts are piracy just like photocopying a rulebook to give to a friend is piracy just like burning a copy of a cd is piracy (who even uses those though?)
The legality is also pretty clear. It’s violation of copyright and personal use isn’t a sufficient defense. At least in my understanding of us copyright law as a layperson
The morality is the gray area. If you would not have bought the product, and you are not supporting an illicit industry (buying from a recasting company) - does your personal recast of a model become immoral? If you would not have been able to buy the legal proper official model, and instead cut bases out of wood and use sticks or other toys you already had, is this immoral? Are paper dolls recasts? Are proxies piracy?
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on May 12, 2018 21:43:10 GMT
This thread has progressed deep down a path of personal attack, and hopefully ideas can again be shared without ad hominems. Personally, I know first hand how artists, writers, and other creatives often struggle to self-sustain. Appropriating their product without any direct recompense is something I can't condone, though I don't have a blanket injunction against IP theft. After all, in the American context, our pharmacuetical industry charges extortionate prices for life essentials. No tears for them.
I do have an curiosity about the market though. With personal, high quality 3D printers being available, are there also black market merchants for the files of scanned items?
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Post by gobber on May 12, 2018 22:09:07 GMT
This thread has progressed deep down a path of personal attack, and hopefully ideas can again be shared without ad hominems. Personally, I know first hand how artists, writers, and other creatives often struggle to self-sustain. Appropriating their product without any direct recompense is something I can't condone, though I don't have a blanket injunction against IP theft. After all, in the American context, our pharmacuetical industry charges extortionate prices for life essentials. No tears for them. I do have an curiosity about the market though. With personal, high quality 3D printers being available, are there also black market merchants for the files of scanned items? Not for warmahordes, but most professional 3d printers will also sell the .stl files needed to print at home, such as this star wars legion terrain site: imperialterrain.com/This is also kinda what Shapeways is; a giant hub of uploaded files that gives the uploader a buck or two per print that gets bought. Model scanning hasn't caught on in any big way, but there are some non-downloadable scans of stuff like this mountain king out there: sketchfab.com/models/2eb21daf408141d1b2df1d91426935ad
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on May 12, 2018 23:19:49 GMT
I have a naïve question. Is technology available/ affordable to self-SCAN a post-market model, to create a file that can then be used for self-3D printing? Or do all pirate files still need a pirate 3D sculptor on some level?
I'm still not clear how the forgeries come to be. (Sorry if I missed it, and I see that gobber described this some. Do forgers have uber scanners or in-house sculptors cleaning up poor scans or something?)
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on May 13, 2018 0:16:50 GMT
On a somewhat different note on grey areas, I have toyed with Oyu-maru to stretch and modify existing units (a recent full unit of ho-hum Khadoran mechaniks became two minimum converted ones). I (badly) copied certain bits, and added others, trying to stay roughly within that 50% PP rule.
It feels grey area to me, even to do this. I think Wishing had a similar situation. I try to justify that I spend hundreds on PP models (helping keep PP afloat) but technically I now have a (second) minimum unit I didn't buy per se. It dawned on me: When running multiples, it's possible with the 50% rule to stay tournament legal while only paying for about half of one's army!
Does that make sense? Each single, purchased, 100% unit or 'jack = TWO playable ones at 50% each... with a little elbow grease and greenstuff.
Tourney legal but financially immoral?
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