|
Post by tiberius on May 24, 2018 10:31:48 GMT
To be honest, I feel that the banes are some of the best troops in the game, especially with some of the debuffs or protections that some of our casters can give them. In addition, I do feel that our casters are some of the strongest in the game, which makes up for a lot of our weaker or sub-par units. They cant make something like mechanithralls cost less than 10 pts for a full unit and have them wreck heavies on their own (like they used to in MKII) when the target has a debuff on it. I mean, those guys used to be punching at P+S 15 with the combo strike. For cheap, expendible troops, that was way too good.
Banes have always been pretty elite. Sure they have some weaknesses but everything should. They are SPD 5 and what speeds them up? A few casters we have can make them faster, Skarre 3 and Sturgis come to mind. Wrathe (as support) also comes to mind. We lost the extra movement from curse for a reason.
They are fairly inaccurate for elite troops. This is fixed with many of our casters having a DEF debuff or tartarus himself giving a global +1 MAT to banes.
Bane warriors have tough with the command attachment, which also stands them up for free if they make the tough check and they have a once per game recursion to bring out more weapon masters with an innate arm debuff. They get prowl from the theme and with the clouds from the theme you are allowed to place, and innate ghostly, you should have no problems triggering prowl on the approach.
I guess I am not understanding why we feel our troops are not up to snuff? It costs what, 9 pts for a full unit of mechanithralls? What else is that cheap that are SPD 6, DEF 12, ARM 12, and can bring a unit or warjack that can recur them reliably? Their weapon attachments are legit beaters with shield guard and their command attachment gives them advance deploy so you can give them a more reliable matchup. They also have ambush in theme if you feel like it. I am not understanding what else you think they need that would not make their price sky rocket?
|
|
|
Post by grotsnik on May 24, 2018 19:40:34 GMT
Yeah, I also think non thrall models are comparable to other faction models, thats why I said that "our troops are not worse either"
But having a colossal that has awful range on its guns and can only bring back 3 mcthralls/1 brute is not "reliable recursion" the church shoots crevasses and can bring back 3 bastions/cinerators, thats reliable. If you add brutes and the skarlock the unit is no longer 9pts its 18. The recursion is also not that great as you cant attack when you come back, and you can only bring back 9 thralls a turn provided your oponent didnt focus only on one side leaving one of the 3 models unable to collect (and provided you brought a sepulcher, which is already a bad idea) Sitting on 12/12 means that you will take way more casualties than 9, and a WE to suport thralls wont make much difference, plus at that point you are expending 51 points in suporting thralls... IMO mcthralls are ok-ish, but sepulcher needs improvements as well as IM
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on May 25, 2018 7:35:15 GMT
I agree that IM needs something to make it more desirable. Starting with removing the rather useless Hyper Aggressive on our squishy warjacks and adding in something useful. Ambush is also not terribly useful on Mechanithralls, because since the Brute Thrall changes, you want them to be your front line. If any unit of small based Thralls could gain Ambush (still only 1 unit of course), it would finally give us a reason to play Bile or Carrion Thralls?
It's not so much that the models in the theme are so bad, though some could definitely use a bump, but that the theme benefits don't help to shore up any of the weaknesses the models have. And Mechanithrall boats are surprisingly expensive once you add in all the bells and whistles, but you feel forced to play them because cheap shield guards is the only thing keeping other models safe.
Unfortunately this is unlikely to change for the next 2 years, except if we get lucky with the Christmas CID.
With Terminus I tend to play as many Banes as possible plus a Wraith Engine. Darragh is an option, but he costs the same as a min unit of Knights, so it's a tough choice. Eilish or Overlords are good additions as well, but generally more undead = better. I currently play lots of min units, even though Warriors are slightly more cost efficient at max, but it makes units harder to control with things like Rebuke or Enfeeble. Don't bother with more than one unit of cavalry, if even that. They are too fast for Terminus to keep up with them and its lower model count to grant Tough to.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on May 25, 2018 12:59:23 GMT
I agree that IM needs something to make it more desirable. Her name is Warwitch Initiate Deneghra (assuming her final form has an Armor fixer). All of a sudden McThralls are combo striking up to Bane Warrior levels with Casters that bring no armor fixers at 60% of the cost of a Bane.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on May 25, 2018 13:09:41 GMT
I agree that IM needs something to make it more desirable. Her name is Warwitch Initiate Deneghra (assuming her final form has an Armor fixer). All of a sudden McThralls are combo striking up to Bane Warrior levels with Casters that bring no armor fixers at 60% of the cost of a Bane. Which casters that don't have an armour fixer prefer to play in Infernal Machines and don't want to spend all those points on their own battle group? Goreshade 3 and Aiakos 2? And they will still suffer from Deneghra's warjack tax.
|
|
|
Post by grotsnik on May 25, 2018 14:16:16 GMT
Why do people play satyxis and not thralls? The themes are exactly the same: one no bonus, ambush for one not so hot unit and free solos Satyxis are played because point for point they are way better than thralls This means that either a)thralls are not cheap enough b)they need more synergies (more than a 10pt module that maybe lands a curse of shadows or maybe doesnt) or c)they need a good theme and not the current utter crap (It could also mean that satyxis are too cheap, but given that they are not bending metas or autowining tournaments I wouldnt think so)
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on May 26, 2018 15:22:37 GMT
Her name is Warwitch Initiate Deneghra (assuming her final form has an Armor fixer). All of a sudden McThralls are combo striking up to Bane Warrior levels with Casters that bring no armor fixers at 60% of the cost of a Bane. Which casters that don't have an armour fixer prefer to play in Infernal Machines and don't want to spend all those points on their own battle group? Goreshade 3 and Aiakos 2? And they will still suffer from Deneghra's warjack tax. Lich Lord Terminus
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on May 28, 2018 6:28:24 GMT
c)they need a good theme and not the current utter crap Tweaking the theme would actually go a long way to making them desirable. For instance, making it so any one small based Thrall unit can gain ambush (this would disallow Brutes I guess, but Carrions and Biles are better at ambushing anyway), having the Wraith Engine count for points, maybe allowing the Hellslinger to be free and changing Hyper Aggressive to literally anything that applies to infantry, or just something useful in general. The models themselves aren't too bad, but they do lack some synergy as you say. Deller while Infernal Machines is ok for Terminus, I do much prefer him in Dark Host and having to spend 10+ points to get access to an armour debuff when you can already get to P+S 20 without breaking a sweat doesn't really excite me. It's points not spend on cannon fodder.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on May 28, 2018 23:30:49 GMT
Deller while Infernal Machines is ok for Terminus, I do much prefer him in Dark Host and having to spend 10+ points to get access to an armour debuff when you can already get to P+S 20 without breaking a sweat doesn't really excite me. It's points not spend on cannon fodder. My point is you still end up with more Fodder in Infernal Machines than you would in Dark Host, and Denehra0 makes the IM Fodder hit as hard as Banes. Assuming a list where you go all in on dude spam in both lists Dark Host gets you: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0B0WkA1919i22k2ki4i4h-h_h-h_h-h_Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Dark Host [Terminus 1] Lich Lord Terminus [+27] - Barathrum [15] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] Bane Lord Tartarus [0(6)] Machine Wraith [2] Machine Wraith [2] Bane Knights (min) [9] Bane Knights (min) [9] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [5] While Infernal Machines gets you: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0w0WkA19192klP19i1dQi1i1i1i1i1i11F1FCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines [Terminus 1] Lich Lord Terminus [+27] - Barathrum [15] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] Machine Wraith [2] Warwitch Initiate Deneghra [4] - Deathripper [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Skarlock Commander [0(3)] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] That’s 48 Unit dudes in Dark Host compared to the 71 of Infernal Machines. The difference in numbers is massive even after IM dedicates 10 points to Deneghra0. Yes Banes are harder to kill, but Terminus himself is harder to kill in IM because Necrosurgeons let you do the same Sac Pawn BS as Rengrave so Terminus’s effective Sac Pawn bubble is massive.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on May 29, 2018 6:40:36 GMT
Deller I think you're undervaluing the worth of Ghostly and +2 MAT is when comparing Dark Host to Infernal Machines. Although I agree that the Infernal Machines list looks valid (more dudes to kill means more chance of your opponent clocking themselves), but navigating terrain, ignoring free strikes and being more sufficient is more valuable to me. To each their own.
|
|
|
Post by darkshroud on May 30, 2018 12:19:00 GMT
i feel like we're the 1% asking them to change the tax bracket when we start to compare our themes and say IM is just a little worse than broken coast and they should tweak it.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on May 30, 2018 12:22:39 GMT
i feel like we're the 1% asking them to change the tax bracket when we start to compare our themes and say IM is just a little worse than broken coast and they should tweak it. I'm not sure if it's that bad. Ideally all factions would be treated equally and all models across all themes would be playable. The one that could use some tweaks in Cryx is definitely Infernal Machines, not just compared to our other themes. Honestly Scourge is also not a very interesting theme to play in compared to BI, DH and SFR.
|
|
|
Post by drach42 on May 30, 2018 15:10:23 GMT
The conversation took an interesting turn. Lets start with Dellers Terminus lists. My original point still stands as both of those lists just do better (in my opinion) with any of our viable casters. This is especially true of the Dark host version because you took 3 UA's for the warriors anyways, pretty much removing the one reason to play Terminus.
As for the IM list it isn't viable with terminus especially in our current meta, not even a little. You would stand no chance vs Madrak1, Derp turtles, Haley3, Thagrosh, Any fleet or DI from cryx, Any circle list....... That list cannot kill anything (little hyperbole). So what does 70+ 1/2 inch melee mat 5 pow negligible 12/12 models do for you? It allows your opponent to play in the sprinkler. The only way to make that list even ok is to use a caster that can help it out.
I don't feel like we are the 1%. In my opinion IM as a theme is not inherently worse than any of our other themes, it is the thrall models themselves that are not good. I don't know how I feel about using a theme benefit to make the models better (although it has happened a lot so far). Gang as a theme benefit to thralls would work, it would also work if they just had gang (I personally don't think that would be overpowered). I don't think a points reduction for them can fix them (mechanithralls that is, I think biles would be cool if they dropped 4-5 points and I think that carrions are good where they are).
|
|
|
Post by tiberius on May 30, 2018 17:10:27 GMT
Well, I mean you are right, almost any warcaster is going to run any army better than terminus, as that is not how he plays. The army for him is just a formality and a delivery mechanism. They can kill or not, do something other than jam or not, it doesn't matter as long as Terminus can get where he is going.
I guess I don't play any of the hyper competitive meta or and I cant say I have done any of those matchup except for Madrak 1 (and I did get slaughtered using Aiakos).
I personally feel that the thralls are fine as priced, but I agree that the benefits we get from IM are lacking. Hyperaggressive on warjacks may as well not exist. Gang on thralls, while fixing all of their problems, there is a reason they went down in power in the cross over to MKIII, when they used to be P+S 15 with combo strike and could attack the turn they were returned to play from one of their recursion bots. They would most certainly see a price hike if they were to get gang.
Not sure I agree about a 4-5 point drop for bile thralls. Look at the sharde pirates, at 8/14 for min/max unit, 13 DEF, 11 ARM, P+S 9 on hand weapons (and gang) and 6" sprays and innate tough. I guess you are paying for the sprays. VS. 9/15 for bile thralls that are 1 use 8" continuous corrosion sprays with no melee weapons. I can see them getting a 1-2 point drop in comparison, or give them some ability like toxic cloud generation to protect them on the way in. I am not sure. But you are right, compared to other in-faction sources, they need a boost of some sort.
|
|
|
Post by wseraphim on May 30, 2018 22:50:48 GMT
I'd like to see "all soul takers start game with soul" benefit instead of hyper-aggressive. Just imagine - all our soul-powered abilities works! Malice, able to posess jacks again, hellslinger becoming actual threat, denny3 using her abilities outside of feat, incorporeal soulhunters on approach..
|
|