xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Apr 26, 2018 16:35:25 GMT
He used to be a big deal with his huge forest of a feat. Lately I have not really heard of anyone playing him. Do we think that he will come back into fashion after the next round of CID if living beasts get some love? What would you say are the main reasons why he is currently not being played?
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Post by bloodhawk on Apr 26, 2018 17:16:29 GMT
Others may have more insight, but I played Wurmwood heavily at the beginning of MkIII so I believe I have some relevant thoughts. IMO the biggest factor is themes. Personally when I build theme lists with Wurmwood they always seem to feel slightly off. When I played him early in MkIII I used a combination of living beasts, sentry stones, and Reeves. That list felt perfect to me and seemed to have everything he wanted. Now with themes, I always feel like another caster will play the same theme slightly better. For example, I can think of reasons to play Bones, Devourers, Call with Wurmwood and I have builds that I like. That being said, I feel like I prefer Krueger2, Baldur2, or Brad in Bones; Una2, Krueger1, or Baldur1 in Devourers; and Kaya3, Kromac2, or Una2 in Call. All that being said I just can't bring myself to use him generally in lieu of other options.
Personally, I definitely will look to explore Wurmwood more heavily after the upcoming CID. I feel hamstrung every time I write a list with Wolves or Goats as they are clearly not costed appropriately to the rest of the game. I am very hopeful that after the CID our lists building will be much more flexible with reductions in living beast points. I have always liked using a Riphorn in combination with Warpwolves as the basis of my list. I really like using hellmouth as a threat extender. I am hoping to open that idea up again once the upcoming CID starts.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2018 17:38:04 GMT
I love him, just got bored...now I love him again (I have a commitment problem... don't tell my wife...)
I actually am running him at a local Team tournament in the NOVA region. Its a tough meta for this event and I need him to be a better support for my team. I will be posting battle reports as I play him right now I just happen to be on a protectorate high. (not playing them at the Team event because I need more practice with the faction)
He is still super strong. I run am running him in the following Bones list: Wurmy -Megs -2 Wyrds -Guardian -Warden 2 Sentrys 2 Shifting 2 Shapers Wayfarer Ellish Max Bone Grinders Gallows Grove
Its not a versatile as the list I took to Nova Last year but I just cannot afford to play out of theme anymore. The benefits and free points are too good to not get.
I think if Wurmwood was allowed in Secret Masters you would see him more. It allows him to run pretty much free range, while still getting free points and all that jazz. But sadly he cannot because reasons...
I think most of the reason you o not see him anymore is because of people getting bored of him. He is still a strong and versatile caster, but people move onto other things. Just like I expect to see Kruger 2 dissipate a bit after tharn CiD because people have been playing him for so long at this point.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Apr 26, 2018 18:16:18 GMT
I love him, just got bored...now I love him again (I have a commitment problem... don't tell my wife...) I actually am running him at a local Team tournament in the NOVA region. Its a tough meta for this event and I need him to be a better support for my team. I will be posting battle reports as I play him right now I just happen to be on a protectorate high. (not playing them at the Team event because I need more practice with the faction) He is still super strong. I run am running him in the following Bones list: Wurmy -Megs -2 Wyrds -Guardian -Warden 2 Sentrys 2 Shifting 2 Shapers Wayfarer Ellish Max Bone Grinders Gallows Grove Its not a versatile as the list I took to Nova Last year but I just cannot afford to play out of theme anymore. The benefits and free points are too good to not get. I think if Wurmwood was allowed in Secret Masters you would see him more. It allows him to run pretty much free range, while still getting free points and all that jazz. But sadly he cannot because reasons... I think most of the reason you o not see him anymore is because of people getting bored of him. He is still a strong and versatile caster, but people move onto other things. Just like I expect to see Kruger 2 dissipate a bit after tharn CiD because people have been playing him for so long at this point. Nice looking list. Who are you pairing him with and what do you expect to drop him into?
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Post by maplewhisky on Apr 26, 2018 18:26:52 GMT
I don’t know you’d play him in SM. Druids aren’t very good models and he doesn’t like the Fulcrum.
Wurmwood is in my opinion still the strongest caster in our faction out the gate. In terms of raw power I think he has the default strongest kit. Problem as a couple others have said is themes but also the meta.
In Themes at present I think he plays Bones the best. After playing around with a lot I think I like him more with a unit of minion work models than with token Bonegrinders or any other “just there for souls” models. Personally I like Croaks as you can get 13 souls for 19 points. In regards to the meta, at present he is quite hard to fit into a pair. He has a good matchup vs Skorne but not Rasheth. He’s quite good vs Protectorate but doesn’t really like Amon. He’s good into Cygnar, especially diggers but not great vs Nemo3 and really does not enjoy Caine3 (not a big deal in the current meta though). Good vs Ret but not Kaelyssa etc. Finding an offlist for him that can handle those matchups is really difficult. I don’t think he’s a bad pair with Krueger though.
Anyway, I really enjoy playing him. I like that he is incredibly survivable most of the time, I think that’s really valuable. What I don’t like is that there are some things that just straight ignore his mechanics and you can’t really play around it. I definitely believe there’s a good pairing with Wurmwood in it, but I’m really happy just now with Krueger2 & Brad, so I probably won’t do too much serious searching for a little while.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2018 18:47:37 GMT
@xadamar Pairing him with my beloved totally Krueger 2 list. Krueger -Megs -2 Wardens -2 Wyrds Fulcrum 2 Shapers Wayfarer 2 Sentry 2 Gallows Shifting Stones Basically I like the redudancy in a team environment, It allows for more guaranteed match ups and prevents list chicken from ruining a round for your team (something I struggle with a lot with protectorate builds) Wurmwood handles harder gunlines that get around Windstorm, as well as higher armor heavy lists. Kruger skews more towards infantry/combined arms and takes on gunlines that ignore terrain (FRIKKING RETRIBUTION) or lists that are able to negate wurmwoods terrain generation in some way. Basically Its not about which list is dropped into what other list type, its about who on our team drops into what list type/faction I think with this pairing I can safely drop into: Skorne (gallows groves wreck Masters of War Kitty spam and Stranglehold makes Derp Turtles Sad) Cygnar (because screw Gun-lines) Ret (Krueger does really Good into them for the most part TK and Windstorm makes AFG's sad which makes me happy) Khador (Not 8+ jack variant) Cryx (Kruger can rip most lists. Have not played the 9 slayer list yet...but I can always practice it. Think wurmwood is the answer there because of stranglehold and the Feat to buy me turns) Legion: Because Outside of oracles nothing scares me...and even then... Minions: Nothing there scares me. Wurmwood is a solid fight into Arkadius by nature of feat and denying LoS to prevent his feat from working properly. Also, stranglehold and randomly assassinating arkadius is a thing both lists can do. Rask could be a problem, but I think Strangleholding lesser warlock beasts and forcing him to feat first wins me the game. Protectorate: Amon does not scare me as long as the scenario forces him to spread just a bit. Harby is easy for krueger because of the double Groves. (deny tough AND Martyrdom) Also frick-huge attack volume and assassination threat. My problem factions are: Mercs; Nigh impossible to tech for, could be anything. Ossrum is a serious issue for me Because SPD8 heavies at arm 23 with pathfinder are dumb in every respect. Gun bunnies randomly kill anything thats not a heavy as well. (That list is so dumb...) Convergence: I literally have no idea how to play this, so few games into CoC in this edition... Trolls: Forcing me to fight fair makes me sad. Arm 18 Def 16 champs with high mat and pathfinder makes me more sad. Koldgrannie also randomly assassinates my casters fairly easily. Overall I feel the pairing is super strong. I would take it to any event honestly. Hoping to dodge anything with more than 7 jacks. maplewhisky because other than sentry stones, I basically run the list I took to Nova with him in Secret masters, and I really liked that list. Secret masters does need a lot of help with a CiD though.... Why not rasheth winds? Is it Just castigate? Because Megs and the warden can still cast stranglehold and be relatively reliable at turning off at least one of the turtles. On feat turn you can even afford to play wurmy a bit more forward and use craft talisman to throw strangleholds at them with range 12. I don't think its unplayable. Its not like we have too many answers to double turtles in faction as it is...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 26, 2018 20:08:35 GMT
Legion: Because Outside of oracles nothing scares me...and even then... quoting for sadness... Slightly on topic - I've not seen anything that would have been considered a drop in WW's power. As a reason he stopped being played. I know exactly who on this board is going find that comment frustrating... But oh well. Even after his feat took a huge hit he was still prevalent as the only real option against gunlines at the time. Likely more due to necessity that personal preference. I think at worst WW is serviceable in themes and still quite capable. As he is the one Circle caster I(we) don't own. I can't wax poetically on about staying out of theme to make him work. (Like I do in Legion constantly)
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 26, 2018 20:27:53 GMT
I think after the fuzzy beasts get some love he'll be very viable in Wild Hunt. Wolves and Reeves both provide (relatively) cheap souls and love CoS. Beasts being able to charge through forests is a big help to him and war wolves are deadly with any damage buff. The only thing holding him back in this theme is a lack of Stone Shapers to help tune up wolds so you lose out on really hard hitting geomanciers but you can't have everything.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2018 20:35:43 GMT
I think after the fuzzy beasts get some love he'll be very viable in Wild Hunt. Wolves and Reeves both provide (relatively) cheap souls and love CoS. Beasts being able to charge through forests is a big help to him and war wolves are deadly with any damage buff. The only thing holding him back in this theme is a lack of Stone Shapers to help tune up wolds so you lose out on really hard hitting geomanciers but you can't have everything. If tracker changed to allow seeing through clouds I would run wild hunt all the time. Now Mohsar in wild hunt.... My issue with wild hunt is the infantry themselves (super lackluster) and tracker is either 100% relevant or 0% in my games.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Apr 26, 2018 20:58:14 GMT
I think after the fuzzy beasts get some love he'll be very viable in Wild Hunt. Wolves and Reeves both provide (relatively) cheap souls and love CoS. Beasts being able to charge through forests is a big help to him and war wolves are deadly with any damage buff. The only thing holding him back in this theme is a lack of Stone Shapers to help tune up wolds so you lose out on really hard hitting geomanciers but you can't have everything. If tracker changed to allow seeing through clouds I would run wild hunt all the time. Now Mohsar in wild hunt.... My issue with wild hunt is the infantry themselves (super lackluster) and tracker is either 100% relevant or 0% in my games. Tracker with Wurmwood can always be relevant with his 4 inch AoE forest. :-D
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 27, 2018 13:04:49 GMT
I think after the fuzzy beasts get some love he'll be very viable in Wild Hunt. Wolves and Reeves both provide (relatively) cheap souls and love CoS. Beasts being able to charge through forests is a big help to him and war wolves are deadly with any damage buff. The only thing holding him back in this theme is a lack of Stone Shapers to help tune up wolds so you lose out on really hard hitting geomanciers but you can't have everything. If tracker changed to allow seeing through clouds I would run wild hunt all the time. Now Mohsar in wild hunt.... My issue with wild hunt is the infantry themselves (super lackluster) and tracker is either 100% relevant or 0% in my games. Double reeves is not super lackluster and neither are ambushing wolves. I'd also say give skinwalkers another shot with the change to unyielding with an armor buff caster like Baldur1 or Morv1 and you may be pleasantly surprised. Wild hunt gets a much worse rap then it deserves. The biggest problem its got is a nothing theme benefit because the beasts can't currently use it effectively and the lack of blackclads ...
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 27, 2018 13:14:02 GMT
If tracker changed to allow seeing through clouds I would run wild hunt all the time. Now Mohsar in wild hunt.... My issue with wild hunt is the infantry themselves (super lackluster) and tracker is either 100% relevant or 0% in my games. Double reeves is not super lackluster and neither are ambushing wolves. I'd also say give skinwalkers another shot with the change to unyielding with an armor buff caster like Baldur1 or Morv1 and you may be pleasantly surprised. Wild hunt gets a much worse rap then it deserves. The biggest problem its got is a nothing theme benefit because the beasts can't currently use it effectively and the lack of blackclads ... I guess I am jaded because I tried it with kromac 1 and was really disappointing with the unit performance. Basically every game I just felt like Call would've been a better choice. Thought process was tracker plus warpath plus Bestial to bully the caster and pick apart the army. The one thing I really like about Wild hunt is you get battlegroup versatility. So a caster like Kromac who really wants ranged units/models to trigger warpath can get them without relying on a 17 point pillow-fisted heavy. I guess my meta just hates on 13/13 infantry too much. I would go as far as to say that 13/13 infantry in our faction are worse off than a unit like Idrians or hallow-men, because there is more defensive support in those factions. Skinwalkers with baldur1 are legit, but the rest of the theme...meh? Tracker is cool with the Rapid Growth but otherwise I would rather run him in bones or Devo Host. Ambushing wolves are lackluster when you play any list that has a meaningful way to kill infantry, typically in my games all they do is serve as a distraction unless my opponent goofs and just happens to leave something withing their ambush charge range.
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Wurmwood
Apr 27, 2018 13:20:49 GMT
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Post by rezfon on Apr 27, 2018 13:20:49 GMT
Convergence: I literally have no idea how to play this, so few games into CoC in this edition. Wurmwood against Axis is in Wurmwoods favour about 60/40. Axis needs to get pretty far forward to maximise feat, only the floaty jacks have native pathfinder and Axis likes to run galvanisers for bulldoze and inverters. Main bit I'd worry about is the TEPs for their sprays. Against orion however, that matchup isn't in your favour at all. Assimilator ground pounders can give effective 7" vision through forests, even without that Orion has mage sight and magic bullet. Feat will mince apart high def and arm targets.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 27, 2018 13:31:35 GMT
Convergence: I literally have no idea how to play this, so few games into CoC in this edition. Wurmwood against Axis is in Wurmwoods favour about 60/40. Axis needs to get pretty far forward to maximise feat, only the floaty jacks have native pathfinder and Axis likes to run galvanisers for bulldoze and inverters. Main bit I'd worry about is the TEPs for their sprays. Against orion however, that matchup isn't in your favour at all. Assimilator ground pounders can give effective 7" vision through forests, even without that Orion has mage sight and magic bullet. Feat will mince apart high def and arm targets. Typically with Wurmwood Kruger pair I assume they will drop the list that handles wurmwood to have a better chance at a game. But Orion may not like Kruger because of windstorm so that's super list chicken-ey. I don't think I can afford to drop wurmy in that pair though, because if I lose list chicken I just get assassinated by orion.
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 27, 2018 13:47:22 GMT
I guess my meta just hates on 13/13 infantry too much. I would go as far as to say that 13/13 infantry in our faction are worse off than a unit like Idrians or hallow-men, because there is more defensive support in those factions. Ambushing wolves are lackluster when you play any list that has a meaningful way to kill infantry, typically in my games all they do is serve as a distraction unless my opponent goofs and just happens to leave something withing their ambush charge range. Point one is the biggest key. We actually do have casters with defensive buffs for our infantry but the big problem is that none of those casters come with offensive buffs for those same infantry. So in the lists that can actually deliver them they end up hitting like wet noodles and in the lists where they can do damage they never make it there. With a few tweaks the hunt could be truly awesome and pathfinder on the heavies is a good place to start. How different would your Kromac experience have been if the beast had pathfinder? Personally I see our best hunt casters as being Grayle, both Morvs, Tannith, Wurmwood and Baldur1. Right now the last 2 do kind of solve my first point with their tech. Morvahna could easily be solved by adding a +2Str buff for warrior models only spell to Brennos (Morv2 needs a couple other tweaks but that's not the point here). Grayle just needs Fury or blood fury added to his spell card period. Tannith is already baller in that theme and i wouldn't touch her. To your last point I'll disagree quite strongly. Having an ambushing unit closes off entire portions of the board to your opponent right up until you decide to use it. This has a huge mental effect on the game and allows the ambushing player a high degree of control of where his opponent can reasonably go. The wild hunt is soooo close to being great it hurts and I really hope PP takes a look at it because the models involved are my favorite part of the circle line up.
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