|
Post by snotling on May 8, 2018 7:41:28 GMT
My point: She gives one thing Repo3 and a defensive buff to another thing, has a damage Feat and allmost no boardpresence herself. Thats a swiss army knife with very few tools. I think she is a battlebox caster ment for learning the game, and thats about it. I don't see any matchup, were i would drop her over Thags1, Twins, Fyanna, Abby2 or Anamag (who really is a swiss army knife (Damage Buff, Arm Buff, Hit Buff, Indirect threatextender and upkeephate). And I take +2 and GW over +3 any day of the week.
Sure if you want to play her do it, I played all but four of our casters in tournaments since the start of 2017. But nowbody should trick themself into thinking she can stand up the best things other factions throw at us (In 75p Games).
|
|
|
Post by dirtyharrypotter on May 8, 2018 9:02:28 GMT
Anamag needs a rather specific setup to consider +2 and GW an armywide buff. She also needs ogruns to proc her ritual. Kryssa has no such restrictions, save her fury stat (which makes Raeks good for her). The point I was pushing is that almost everything likes that feat without reservation. When I first read her rules I thought it was a very weird package of generally usefull tools. I have to say though, it's a nice package to play around with. But your own point is well taken, anamag is OP as hell
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 8, 2018 11:54:40 GMT
Regarding "good gun presence vs teps." How exactly does that work against 12 or so free shield guards and three free sac pawn targets per tep every turn? Strider scouts put out 8 shots per turn. If I recall correctly the servitors are not that tanky. Kryssa's spray cannot be shield guarded and can be arc'd way in the back to clear more servitors. Raeks can easily hunt down shield guards and sac pawns in the back with bounding leap. I feel like I have enough tools for it
|
|
|
Post by dirtyharrypotter on May 8, 2018 12:04:40 GMT
If memory serves magic attacks can't be shieldguarded either, and kryssa does like hexhunters (or rather, they like ashen veil)
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 8, 2018 12:15:22 GMT
My point: She gives one thing Repo3 and a defensive buff to another thing, has a damage Feat and allmost no boardpresence herself. Thats a swiss army knife with very few tools. I think she is a battlebox caster ment for learning the game, and thats about it. I don't see any matchup, were i would drop her over Thags1, Twins, Fyanna, Abby2 or Anamag (who really is a swiss army knife (Damage Buff, Arm Buff, Hit Buff, Indirect threatextender and upkeephate). And I take +2 and GW over +3 any day of the week. Sure if you want to play her do it, I played all but four of our casters in tournaments since the start of 2017. But nowbody should trick themself into thinking she can stand up the best things other factions throw at us (In 75p Games). Anamag will outclass Kryssa by far in certain areas. Anamag is designed with infantry and the Blightbringer in mind. With that you can swing +4 every turn and +6 on feat turn. Kryssa cannot compete with that. But to me Kryssa is not supposed to. I invite you to read the tactica I wrote if you haven't already. That will convey, in more words, my reasons for running Kryssa. But long story short I'm still 9-0 with her and I don't have a problem with what many people put forward as her weaknesses. For Example - Repo 3 can be hot swapped. The game I just played Craelix got it to start. Next turn he walks up and takes his shots and Repos. Kryssa swaps it to Azrael. Then back and forth as desired on the other turns. 15" on Craelix and 13" on Azrael is pretty hard for speed 5 trolls to chase. Cloak of ash goes on the Strider scouts. Now Def 17 vs living in melee they were jamming a full unit of champs + UA for 2 full turns so far back that they had to spend a 3rd turn running just to get back into a meaningful table position. While engaging the Raeks I sent in also benefitted from the debuff and sat at Def 17. Now, both raeks missing a combined 6 boosted 8's is not Kryssa's fault... Once the striders were out it went on the swordsmen and forced plenty of misses against them as well. Quickness was allowing me to move, spray, then quickness onto my flag to get out some damage, stay outside of 11-ish inches, and score my flag. Something not many other casters can do. Though I did set my friendly objective on fire, it didn't matter as Madrac axed it before it burned to death. She is a reactive caster, for me at least. She can adapt to many different play styles. Supports plenty of models. Can bring just enough power on feat turn to make or break attrition. I can always have the things I want where and when I need them. She has just enough of everything to be good. But I know there are casters that will do certain jobs better. I mean come on, as far as infantry casters go Anamag makes Kallus 1 look like a chump. Does that mean after Anamag is released we should never play Kallus 1 again? I'm not trying to say Kryssa is the best and I'm going to start winning tournaments solely on the her power as a caster. That's not even a dream. That's a dellusion. But I enjoy her a lot, I have found great success with my list. I just want to use it in a legit setting and if it holds up, great. If not, I've not lost anything. Well... maybe some pride and a superficial undefeated streak.
|
|
|
Post by snotling on May 8, 2018 13:50:00 GMT
Regarding "good gun presence vs teps." How exactly does that work against 12 or so free shield guards and three free sac pawn targets per tep every turn? Strider scouts put out 8 shots per turn. If I recall correctly the servitors are not that tanky. Kryssa's spray cannot be shield guarded and can be arc'd way in the back to clear more servitors. Raeks can easily hunt down shield guards and sac pawns in the back with bounding leap. I feel like I have enough tools for it I'm pretty sure your feeling is wrong. The shield guards can stand 3" behind huge bases. Some of them are dug in. I really doubt you can remove enough of them. to make a shoutout vs teps viable. Also teps have really no issue to remove strider scouts. Three Sp10 Rat5+4D6 (for example) Sprays will wipe them out no problem. But if you manage to make a viable ranged list against CoC, i would be happy to try it out. I had no luck so far.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on May 8, 2018 14:34:52 GMT
I'm not looking to go toe to toe with it using only guns. The list is still primarily a melee list.
Teps would have to catch the striders first. He would be dedicating quite a lot to try and mitigate an 11 point unit. So either he moves his BE out on a flank to cover and lose ground/scenario or he ignores them and I pick off servitors as I like.
Sprays still ignore intervening models, cover, concealment, etc. If he tries to keep all of his guards in 3" I can probably catch a good enough count of them with a SP10.
I won't know until I try but by watching him play I still think I've got a pretty good chance.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 18, 2018 16:21:08 GMT
I finally got to play some games with Vayl2. I don't want to start saying I know anything about playing her well. But I did enjoy her beyond reason. Just the amount of things she can do, the number of options and potential to affect the game board. It's fantastic. I hope to work out more and more details of how/when/what/etc...
But the main point I want to bring up is a the point of contention I have with her and the impression of her the other local players have. There are some super serious competitors in the local store. When I asked for their opinions it literally started and ended with "I would never take Vayl2 to a tournament. There are entire factions that shut down what she wants to do."
I couldn't refute that either. Yes, there are some simple anti-spell tech pieces out there. But is a caster "dead" if there is even some good tech in the meta that counters them?
PoM always has some pretty good "nope" when it comes to spells. I mean the first game of the day was against Reznik2 who has lamentation. Scourge has Arcane vortex. Indictors got buffed. Choir as still the choir. Cage ragers exist. Ruin trump arcana exists. Mulg, Orinn, Ruin, Sacral Vault, etc... Lots of stuff in Retribution...
Is Vayl2 just a bad choice due to spell-hate?
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Jun 18, 2018 18:34:18 GMT
I finally got to play some games with Vayl2. I don't want to start saying I know anything about playing her well. But I did enjoy her beyond reason. Just the amount of things she can do, the number of options and potential to affect the game board. It's fantastic. I hope to work out more and more details of how/when/what/etc...
But the main point I want to bring up is a the point of contention I have with her and the impression of her the other local players have. There are some super serious competitors in the local store. When I asked for their opinions it literally started and ended with "I would never take Vayl2 to a tournament. There are entire factions that shut down what she wants to do."
I couldn't refute that either. Yes, there are some simple anti-spell tech pieces out there. But is a caster "dead" if there is even some good tech in the meta that counters them?
PoM always has some pretty good "nope" when it comes to spells. I mean the first game of the day was against Reznik2 who has lamentation. Scourge has Arcane vortex. Indictors got buffed. Choir as still the choir. Cage ragers exist. Ruin trump arcana exists. Mulg, Orinn, Ruin, Sacral Vault, etc... Lots of stuff in Retribution...
Is Vayl2 just a bad choice due to spell-hate?
If your list strategy with her relies upon offensive spell slinging to work: yes, of course. I have a hard time imagining much of a list with her that wouldn't rely on offensive spell slinging, so... Her feat kinda implies it is a core part of her game. Still, Occultation, Boundless Charge, Admonition are all buffs and much harder to shut down. I just can't imagine her being able to defeat Menoth lists on the strength of those spells alone.
|
|
|
Post by snotling on Jun 18, 2018 18:38:56 GMT
She is fun to play,
but anti Spell Tech (Mulg, Grymkin, Menoth), combined with her lack of a damage swing in a meta that has a lot of high arm, give her a lot of bad matchups.
And good players wont just put their caster in your assa (that isn't that good to begin with against high arm casters)
What matchups is she supposed to take, that your other list cant handle?
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 18, 2018 19:43:56 GMT
What matchups is she supposed to take, that your other list cant handle? aaaand this is my problem. I'm very much a generalist when I put stuff together. I admit that. Vayl2 fits that ideal very well. But I can and do move to the strength I feel the caster wants to leverage.
*pulls out my beaten and battered Harp
Kryssa and Bethayne seem very similar. But where as I like Bethayne as an armor cracking list. I focus on skirmishing with Kryssa. I would never want to flip those roles either. *puts harp away
So Vayl2 doesn't give me any impression of what she can do or wants to do.
- She could moderately deal with armor thanks to BFS and free charges. But she's not good at it. - Taking the Throne or just quality anti-infantry tech gives her a game into that. Even then I got overrun by about 26 dudes. And it's not because of her spells/feat - She can play pretty defensive with cloud, occultation, admonition, and threat range dancing.
Playing defensively doesn't really win you the game. Granted both of my games I played I only lost the Throne to my opponents and that was to buy me a clear turn to get more work done. But both games I was only able to take infantry of the board. I couldn't even remotely charge into 4 jacks under Reznik and I couldn't even reach the wrastler, turtle, or bling walker before they committed to me.
She just doesn't give me any impression that she can do One job with any sort of expertise. But her spell list is so freaking fantastic I don't under stand why she seems so unfocused.
Generalist don't win tournaments. "Just good" is not good enough. The meta I'm in now is full tilt towards SR tournaments. 3 are coming up in the next month I believe and they are set to go to them all. So I want to "play the same game" so to speak. If I'm going to be there I want to give them a legit experience that will help them get batter. I want to also be able to participate in the local stuff and not feel like a fish out of water. So to accomplish both those things I can't be dropping Kryssa/Bethayne/Blightryss. I wanted Vayl2 to fit that bill but it's pretty glaringly apparent from their opinions and just those 2 intro matches that Vayl is just not going to be the right pick...
|
|
|
Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jun 19, 2018 13:55:46 GMT
I don't know. V2 plays the control game, so you should probably play for a scenario win? Spell sling enemy support. Threaten the rest?
Should be right up to the task you are faced with, but Im missing something?
|
|
|
Post by snotling on Jun 20, 2018 12:20:14 GMT
Szenarioplay these days often comes down to cram as many arm20someting, tough, multiwound dudes as your list can take into zones, i dont see what vayl2 is supposed to do there.
|
|
|
Post by Evola on Jun 22, 2018 14:28:23 GMT
Vayl2 really screams to be played out of theme imo. Thankfully, I know the OP does not consider "out of theme" to be dirty words. Here's some of the compelling tech to go out of theme for with Vayl: 1) Typhon. Boundless charge really deals with his biggest weakness (lack of pathfinder in a faction that very rarely can hand out pathfinder to beasts) and gives a great SPD boost to an already high-SPD beast. Lastly as an expensive piece he is a prime candidate for Admonition against a melee-centric enemy. 2) Seraph - just such great synergy with Typhon, both for slipstream and flare. Flare means you can reliably hit with Typhon's sprays, saving FURY for boosting damage and his Animus, and with slipstream you can either boost up his threat range for melee or shooting, or even use it to shoot with Typhon and the slipstream backwards to get out of reprisal range. Slipstream also gives you great options for the next pieces I love with her... 3) Warlords. Vayl struggles a bit with armour cracking, and these two are perfect for the job. Again, boundless charge is key here, covering the biggest problem with these guys, namely pathfinder. If needed you also have slipstream to push them to an obscene 14" threat on high-MAT decapitating weaponmasters. 4) Hellmouths. There's something delicious about bouncing spells off tentacles. In addition, the potential for an occultated Hellmouth has all kinds of hilarious built into it. (Suck it, widowmakers!) 5) Naga. You have no damage buffs, so at least ignore most armour buffs in return. 6) Neph Bloodseer. There's a lot of animus abuse going on in this recommendation list, and telemetry would not go amiss for an assassination run either. So there's my base recipe, mix and match as you see fit. The bloodseer might pull you towards hex hunters, or maybe occultation will tempt you to bring swordsmen or raptors, reallly fill it out as suits your own playstyle and your particular meta. I think the combination of toys she wants makes a strong case for going out of theme, obviously YMMV. -und_ed Do you have a 75p list? I really like your thinking. A Warlord for arm crack btw? Isn't Bfs a better choice or am I misunderstanding you?
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Jun 22, 2018 15:11:43 GMT
I haven't played her in ages, so no specific list in mind right now.
I like the straight damage of the warlords with that crazy 14" threat. It's a solid amount of damage to a heavy, which goes a long way to wearing it down.
The blackfrost shard are always a tight one to fit in. With a lot of expensive pieces, they're often just beyond the pale. I usually go with a choice of either a Naga or the BFS, never both. Since I face a lot of Menoth, the Naga usually wins.
|
|