gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 16, 2018 20:22:41 GMT
Speaking from a top tier competitive scene, Skorne hasn't placed in a tournament in 2018. According to Discount Games Skorne got 3rd Kindomcon 3rd Southern Ontario Open Masters 2nd Steam storm VI 3rd Southern Ontario Open Champions 3rd Adepticon Masters 1st and 2nd Ontario Team Championship 2018 3rd Las Vegas Open Champions 1st Americas Team Championship 2018 I stand corrected. I tried searching on Discount Games myself. Apparently I'm not very good at this.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 22, 2018 14:02:10 GMT
The real problem for me is the goddang extoller passing out eyeless sight from 13" away. If the siege animantarax didn't have access to that it would be considerably less powerful.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on May 22, 2018 14:14:18 GMT
You mean 14" away. 6 speed + 8 cmd
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 22, 2018 19:47:29 GMT
For many effects like "Guidance", they were created in an era of either no Battle Engines or crappy Battle Engines. So effects like Guidance were limited to super costly Gargantua, warnouns with their many known counters and restrictions, or warrior models. I can see them further limiting some of these effects to "non-Battle Engine", for much the same reason that such huge models are also immune to many debuffs.
Not that I really think this is the problem with Turtle. It's shooting is nice but certainly not the most impactful part of this model.
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Post by challenger on May 23, 2018 9:26:36 GMT
For many effects like "Guidance", they were created in an era of either no Battle Engines or crappy Battle Engines. So effects like Guidance were limited to super costly Gargantua, warnouns with their many known counters and restrictions, or warrior models. I can see them further limiting some of these effects to "non-Battle Engine", for much the same reason that such huge models are also immune to many debuffs. Not that I really think this is the problem with Turtle. It's shooting is nice but certainly not the most impactful part of this model. I mean in mk2 you could eyeless sight a sentinel and have it fire twice with snipe through a forest because of mk2 eyeless and ancillary. Eyeless on a stick has always been great. But its skornes only real stealth solution (slingers are cute and cant see through stealth making flare awkward, zaal2 doesnt really synergise with a gunline at all) I would disagree on the shooting not being the most impactful bit of the turtle. When you take that away you get a great melee BE but with it, its firing turn on turn with really good threat range and repo3 and getting value until it finally commits and when it does that gun is either putting more damage into its primary target or firing into the back line. Basically turtle without its gun wouldnt be near the titan of skorne competitive play that it is
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 23, 2018 13:56:29 GMT
For many effects like "Guidance", they were created in an era of either no Battle Engines or crappy Battle Engines. So effects like Guidance were limited to super costly Gargantua, warnouns with their many known counters and restrictions, or warrior models. I can see them further limiting some of these effects to "non-Battle Engine", for much the same reason that such huge models are also immune to many debuffs. Not that I really think this is the problem with Turtle. It's shooting is nice but certainly not the most impactful part of this model. I mean in mk2 you could eyeless sight a sentinel and have it fire twice with snipe through a forest because of mk2 eyeless and ancillary. Eyeless on a stick has always been great. But its skornes only real stealth solution (slingers are cute and cant see through stealth making flare awkward, zaal2 doesnt really synergise with a gunline at all) I would disagree on the shooting not being the most impactful bit of the turtle. When you take that away you get a great melee BE but with it, its firing turn on turn with really good threat range and repo3 and getting value until it finally commits and when it does that gun is either putting more damage into its primary target or firing into the back line. Basically turtle without its gun wouldnt be near the titan of skorne competitive play that it is Mk2 comparisons are unfortunately not helpful. I'm not even sure I advocate it, but if the Extoller could not give Eyeless Sight to the Turtle, would it be so tilting? I'm not sure, but I think it's worth exploring, because that rule was written before Battle Engines were ever even considered. (Yes, the Engines have been around for a longish time but they were so terrible no one cared so the combination of Eyeless Sight was never an issue) Personally I am not concerned about the Eyeless Sight combo. There are plenty of counters to it's shooting at the moment (good armor, shield guards, cover, most infantry DEF), but maybe if it couldn't ignore cloud walls, stealth, and concealment there would be enough largely accessible counter-play people wouldn't have such a hard time. It's non-boostable RAT 5-7 POW 13-15. If you can't find a way to weather that, you really aren't trying very hard. While I agree it's the "whole package" that makes the turtle "tilting", if I had to I'd much rather lose its shooting before its other strengths (melee, speed, durability).
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Post by elladan52 on May 23, 2018 14:08:19 GMT
They literally added in a way to get eyeless in all hordes themes (including the ones with battle engines) well after the battle engine CID. Your line of reasoning, that eyeless sight was not really considered on battle engines, makes no sense.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 23, 2018 14:38:41 GMT
They literally added in a way to get eyeless in all hordes themes (including the ones with battle engines) well after the battle engine CID. Your line of reasoning, that eyeless sight was not really considered on battle engines, makes no sense. Sure, if PP never made mistakes and tested everything thoroughly.
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Post by elladan52 on May 23, 2018 15:01:28 GMT
They literally added in a way to get eyeless in all hordes themes (including the ones with battle engines) well after the battle engine CID. Your line of reasoning, that eyeless sight was not really considered on battle engines, makes no sense. Sure, if PP never made mistakes and tested everything thoroughly. That's not your original argument, your original argument was based on the rule being written prior, which I think is very unconvincing. Does PP make mistakes? Absolutely. We're battle engines and eyeless sight together completely unconsidered? Definitely not. That was a major point for changing how guidance works, so we could have it in IWH. But regardless, we both seem to agree that it's not actually a huge deal on the battle engines. The turtle is strong, there is no denying that. But I don't think it's access to eyeless sight that puts it over the edge (assuming it is at all). As a side note, y'all should play my Morghoul2 Ambush list. Love me some battle engines on the other side of the table.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 23, 2018 15:25:45 GMT
I like Turtles!
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Post by oranjejus on May 24, 2018 0:33:53 GMT
Leave Guidance alone! How will my Cannoneers ever hit anything if they have to stare at clouds all day? :grumpy face:
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on May 24, 2018 14:28:07 GMT
Oh I never even wanted to discuss making Guidance worse really, just perhaps limiting it to non-Battle Engine targets.
Most (all?) Battle Engines that shoot do so at much higher rate of fire, or just flat out "better" than similarly costed, well, anything. Allowing all that to get Eyeless Sight for the almost same cost that you get Eyeless Sight on your Cannoneer? Maybe a problem... Maybe. But digression: if the turtle has problems, I don't think really access to Eyeless Sight is it.
From a fluff pov, the reason it is so fast is that it gets great bursts of speed when angry... But it doesn't feel very "character-ful" for that angry to let it run away at that speed. I could see it only getting the bonus to speed when charging or trampling. At least that way it can't be "quite" the mobile shooting platform that it is currently. This way it can't forever dance out of range while shooting the enemy until it wants to charge.
A friend of mine posited this about the Turtle: "It's really bad for the faction because without it, the faction struggles, but with it, you can't really boost anything else (beast-wise) in the faction to more reasonable performance for its points.". Of course, he's speaking merely from a top tier competitive play perspective, which I haven't the skillset nor experience to really argue. But... If I look at models that serve a similar function in our faction: the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, and the Mammoth... They all seem very under-performing for their points.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 4, 2018 2:28:36 GMT
the animantarax is surely over powering, but it's not necessary for a Skorne list. An example would be the crazy cat lady lists with mak2 and double ferox. It's a heavily competitive list that steamrolls almost ALL lists if it gets to go first, yet lacks the room for something like the animantarax, as you need fury providers before huge based gunning machines (ferox are out front playing with the enemy so you don't need much melee other than them).
This has more to do with how to best play the faction rather than how best to play the model. Animantarax can move across the board, provide long range support, and even has more armor than our beasts. It works great for either filling in the holes to a desired play style or ramping up one of the faction's current play styles to the nth. The Animantarax is a great addition to our low fury number casters and benefits nightmarishly well with our numerous support models and spells. Its mere existence on the field makes players have to consider a much longer threat range, keeping our titan hordes from getting pummeled before they even make it up the board, bringing back the validity of some of our more questionable choices due to lack of threat. Because the Animantarax is so great at filling the gaps, however, a lot of players get used to not having to worry about those gaps and begin to be suck-tacular the moment you take him out. If you practice playing Skorne without the animantarax you'll soon see a whole new side of skorne that is what made original skorne players play skorne x.O; Run in your sacrificial wall to attract attention until your beasts get into play, then rip apart some machines like they are scrap paper after being boosted to the nth.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 4, 2018 12:40:34 GMT
Yeah, Crazy Cat Lady used to be a thing. 1 year ago, back when everyone played low-attack lists and healing prevention was rare.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 4, 2018 14:05:56 GMT
the animantarax is surely over powering, but it's not necessary for a Skorne list. An example would be the crazy cat lady lists with mak2 and double ferox. It's a heavily competitive list that steamrolls almost ALL lists if it gets to go first, yet lacks the room for something like the animantarax, as you need fury providers before huge based gunning machines (ferox are out front playing with the enemy so you don't need much melee other than them). This has more to do with how to best play the faction rather than how best to play the model. Animantarax can move across the board, provide long range support, and even has more armor than our beasts. It works great for either filling in the holes to a desired play style or ramping up one of the faction's current play styles to the nth. The Animantarax is a great addition to our low fury number casters and benefits nightmarishly well with our numerous support models and spells. Its mere existence on the field makes players have to consider a much longer threat range, keeping our titan hordes from getting pummeled before they even make it up the board, bringing back the validity of some of our more questionable choices due to lack of threat. Because the Animantarax is so great at filling the gaps, however, a lot of players get used to not having to worry about those gaps and begin to be suck-tacular the moment you take him out. If you practice playing Skorne without the animantarax you'll soon see a whole new side of skorne that is what made original skorne players play skorne x.O; Run in your sacrificial wall to attract attention until your beasts get into play, then rip apart some machines like they are scrap paper after being boosted to the nth. Well, yes, but Masters of War doesn't allow Derples anyway. I think a lot of people find that Imperial War Host and Winds of Death need it. I think both "function" but aren't going to compete against better lists very well without Derples, especially IWH. I've tried running X2 without them, and either my army is too small to hold things or everything frenzies too easily and I lose the attrition war anyway. The turtles just take a load off your fury management and give you that crucial piece that can operate outside your control area. They could be worse and I would still probably have to run them just to compete on scenario alone (in IWH)
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