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Post by macdaddy on Apr 19, 2018 20:01:48 GMT
gordo I don't disagree with your first points (other than there being no other good options in the themes its allowed in.) But as far as NK needing the HHH? not at all. The theme works really well without the overpriced beer wagnon. TEP's are mostly taken because they are ridiculously powerful there are other strong options in convergence, but the TEP outshines them all. I think you can nerf the derp turtle (mostly its speed is my problem) without crippling Winds of death or skorne
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 19, 2018 20:16:03 GMT
Edit: Mac beat me to it
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Post by sludgeogre on Apr 19, 2018 20:34:09 GMT
Sorry about the list of nerfs, I realize re-reading it, it sounded like I was asking for ALL of those nerfs at once. I really only think it needs 1-2 of those nerfs, but I have no idea which ones should really be applied to it.
I want the model to still be awesome and valuable in lists, but it certainly does need to come down in power.
I think if it's going to keep the amount of melee output it has, it either needs to lose some range on it's gun, or some accuracy, or lose dual attack, or a combination. If it's going to lose some melee output, then the gun is fine where it is. Mobility of it is a whole different can of worms all together, and I'm not sure where that should be once one of the weapons are nerfed.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 20, 2018 17:11:28 GMT
I'd heard a great idea which was it starts the game with 3 rage tokens, and gets +1 spd per token, but has base spd reduced to 5. Basically it would make it so that after it's initial charge it doesn't still threaten the entire table, and it creates a sort of interesting dichotomy between threat range and offensive potential. I think it also puts a bit more value on the Cyclops Savage, because then Future Sight gets more value.
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Post by sludgeogre on Apr 20, 2018 19:31:12 GMT
I'd heard a great idea which was it starts the game with 3 rage tokens, and gets +1 spd per token, but has base spd reduced to 5. Basically it would make it so that after it's initial charge it doesn't still threaten the entire table, and it creates a sort of interesting dichotomy between threat range and offensive potential. I think it also puts a bit more value on the Cyclops Savage, because then Future Sight gets more value. I think that's a fantastic idea. Really reigns in how much it can dominate the board and may force it to use the gun more frequently. Also makes people really have to make decisions. I like it!
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granor
Junior Strategist
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Post by granor on Apr 20, 2018 21:53:42 GMT
Does that rule come with any way of getting the rage tokens again? Or does the SA only have 3 total to spend over the entire game?
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 21, 2018 14:41:13 GMT
Get them through attacks, same as now. If it charges too far ahead you won't be able to fuel it up again with your paingivers.
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Post by challenger on Apr 21, 2018 23:55:45 GMT
17pts is right in the middle of the spectrum of heavies. You get your cannoneers, soldiers, sentinels, bronzeback, gladiator etc all around this price point.
The turtle comes with an inbuilt high threat range and pathfinder meaning rush is pointless. In that you dont need a 15pt heavy to be brought nearly mamdatory. Obv rush doesnt work on turtle
It has an exceptional defensive statline compared to standard titans - lots of boxes and highest arm.
It gains value at range through the flexibility of a great gun, dual attack for tramplimg and shooting and repo3
It has cavalry rules which are incredible in mk3 especially when you combine it with auto knockdown.
It may not top the melee damage chart like a bronzeback but it will shoot over multiple turns and go in when your opponent is exhausted on ways to kill them.
120mm rules are also very strong allowing you to resist slams, knockdown, stationary, pushes, etc.
It also doesnt care about your warlocks control range so it can range out.
Basically - i think it needs some gentle toning down and skornes other heavies need a bump in effectiveness to fill the gap. The goal is some real versatility amd choice in picking good heavies. As to qhat the nerfs and buffs would be i have not thought very hard on it so wont randomly speculate
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granor
Junior Strategist
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Post by granor on Apr 23, 2018 20:55:19 GMT
I'd heard a great idea which was it starts the game with 3 rage tokens, and gets +1 spd per token, but has base spd reduced to 5. Basically it would make it so that after it's initial charge it doesn't still threaten the entire table, and it creates a sort of interesting dichotomy between threat range and offensive potential. I think it also puts a bit more value on the Cyclops Savage, because then Future Sight gets more value. I like this idea.
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Post by postindirty on Apr 26, 2018 2:00:09 GMT
Just to offer some balance here, it's not pretty obvious. In my country, not only do I not use them myself, but I've not seen the rest of the Skorne players here field many tortoise lists since a small "oooh shiny" period where we all did after the battle engine CID. It's really meta dependant - for whatever reason (don't ask me to analyze) none of us in NZ seem compelled to take them. In fact, I have specific reasons for taking other lists to deal with the meta I've been facing for some time. Edit: Although in saying that, things are changing with the Rise of Trolls I'm seeing... So I think he's completely fine to leave as-is, but hey, it's not like any changes will actually affect anything in my neck of the woods probably Edit: e.g. I couldn't say for sure because I don't know other factions but I bet you can go out there and find other ~17 point models that can hit just as hard during particularly strong feats in many factions. I certainly recall receiving huge walloping from cheap sources plenty of times. My gut tells me this is more a case of Skorne Wartortoise lists are not teched against. There's not enough Skorne players so they fit nicely into that environment as a skew that people haven't prepared an answer for. As such, the answers they themselves offer generate a good number of favourable matches when picking tournament pairs. I don't feel that's a flaw with the power level of the model - just an advantage we're enjoying for a time. Maybe we'll see some challenges to tortoise lists at the next meta shake-up (probably with the release of crucible guard.) Unsure what part of NZ you're in, but from what I hear, the use of Animantaraxs was the straw that broke the back of the Chch camel
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Post by oranjejus on Apr 26, 2018 3:11:50 GMT
Wellington - I don't see/talk to the chch guys outside of when I run into them at LoR. I didn't know there were any Skorne players in chch :embarrassed: - so yeah I certainly don't know local games nationally - was only referencing the national events I've been to/read the results of.
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Post by squighopper on May 16, 2018 14:33:28 GMT
The turtle is on a game balance perspective... an abomination. Spd 8 cavalry battle engine with ARM 20, reposition 3" dual attack with good ranged presence and KD on hit that can also boost or buy attacks. This all just for 17 pts... Seriously?
This model is one of the reasons I have no faith whatsoever in the CID process. That thing keeps spewing poorly designed after poorly designed model.
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granor
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Post by granor on May 16, 2018 14:51:50 GMT
In defense of CID the SA was -1 arm and didn't have the independent attack rules on the side spears when it went into internal testing after CID. These were added by PP themselves with no CID feedback. Personally it feels like PP put in a stop gap because they knew skorne was having issues and that they would not get to the faction for more than a year.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on May 16, 2018 18:22:13 GMT
Speaking from a top tier competitive scene, Skorne hasn't placed in a tournament in 2018. So I think people have adjusted.
To me, the turtle is the only way the faction even comes close to competing at top levels. That doesn't mean it is balanced, but it means... Well, something.
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granor
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Post by granor on May 16, 2018 19:19:40 GMT
Speaking from a top tier competitive scene, Skorne hasn't placed in a tournament in 2018. According to Discount Games Skorne got 3rd Kindomcon 3rd Southern Ontario Open Masters 2nd Steam storm VI 3rd Southern Ontario Open Champions 3rd Adepticon Masters 1st and 2nd Ontario Team Championship 2018 3rd Las Vegas Open Champions 1st Americas Team Championship 2018
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