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Post by sludgeogre on Apr 18, 2018 17:28:53 GMT
I've been playing Skorne for a couple months now, and it is pretty obvious to everyone in the community that the Derp Turtles are a faction-warping model. They are so incredibly strong, with so many unique and powerful rules, plus auto-knockdown on top of it, that they punch miles and miles above their cost. I've been playing Zaadesh2 in IWH and Rasheth in Winds of Death with two turtles in each list and I've never had so much success in this game in the year that I've been playing. They tilt the ever-living hell out of my opponents and generally make for un-fun games for several of them. I went to a different meta with them and no one in the store wanted to play me because they were just sick of losing to turtles.
In addition to this, there is a hefty percentage of the Skorne community that refuses to put turtles on the table at all either because they are too powerful against the people they play or they are just so boring because they win so many games by themselves.
It seems pretty likely that the model was buffed this ridiculously because PP wanted to extend an olive branch to Skorne players before Themepocalypse happened to try to give them some success in a deeply warped meta back at that time (Cygnar had a couple themes and no one else did and Storm Lances and Haley2 were still dominating all over the place) so it really felt like this was just a way to get Skorne players into the game and to sell a model that they likely had a ton of sitting around.
The time has come to bring this guy in line and I think it needs to happen quickly, before any Skorne CID since we're not likely to get one any time soon. I love playing them, I love winning with them, I love the model itself (angry turtles with 4 dudes on top with brutal weapons? Sign me up!) but the downsides of such a powerful model are too many.
I've discussed a lot of ways of toning him down and I think the best way would be to reduce him to speed 6, change knockdown to critical knockdown, and cut dual attack for gun fighter. I also think Cantankerous should be changed so that the tokens can only be used to boost attack or damage rolls, not buy attacks. Having 4 pow 18 attacks, or effective pow 20 attacks, plus the gun shots (especially with Rasheth) on Zaadesh2 or Rasheth's feat turn, is waaaaay too much for a 17 point model to be doing. That's very close to the output of a colossal or gargantuan, and well above the output of almost any beast, of which beasts need to be using fury to do so.
I love this model and this faction, but damn, it's gonna be rough at the WTC if this isn't changed before then. There are going to be a ton of Skorne players with double turtles and everyone is going to have to plan on some way of dealing with them. Blind really makes them suffer, but the themes they are in allow the Mist Speaker in one and two Extollers in the other. Trolls seems to be able to deal with them pretty well and Protectorate has actually hosed me a couple of times just by blocking them with Idrians that I just can't seem to remove and also get massively lucky with tough rolls.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 18, 2018 17:45:43 GMT
Nah. Let's have our time in the sun. We've lived in the darkness long enough, there is no reason to shade our own eyes. Others will do that for us.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 18, 2018 18:11:24 GMT
I think you have too many changes to not just end up maddogging them.
Speed 6 taking away the ability to trample is probably enough all by itself. or you could make cantankerous not work with friendly attacks (I would still want it worded so it works with the damaging terrain) or you could make their speed 3 or 4 and let cantankerous add to speed again. making them total 6 or 7 but on the first turn threat less or you could take away the +rat from volume fire but I really like this ability. or reduce mount melee range to 0.5" or change knock down to crit knock down
I am really not sure what should be done but I really don't want these guys to end up on my shelf. I would love to see a redesign to make them slow and hard to kill but frankly that is probably beyond the scope of what PP can realistically accomplish.
removing the ability to buy attacks without a points decrease drops the offensive output too low I think.
I really don't think any changes should be made without changing the titans too. The main issue I have is several hordes factions have one or 2 pieces way above the curve and their entire competitiveness is based on these models because all other choices are below the curve. Legion, circle, trolls, and skorne all come to mind. But I have had even the competitive players in my LGS complain about my big stompy dinosaurs.
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Post by oranjejus on Apr 18, 2018 22:54:59 GMT
Just to offer some balance here, it's not pretty obvious. In my country, not only do I not use them myself, but I've not seen the rest of the Skorne players here field many tortoise lists since a small "oooh shiny" period where we all did after the battle engine CID. It's really meta dependant - for whatever reason (don't ask me to analyze) none of us in NZ seem compelled to take them. In fact, I have specific reasons for taking other lists to deal with the meta I've been facing for some time. Edit: Although in saying that, things are changing with the Rise of Trolls I'm seeing... So I think he's completely fine to leave as-is, but hey, it's not like any changes will actually affect anything in my neck of the woods probably Edit: e.g. I couldn't say for sure because I don't know other factions but I bet you can go out there and find other ~17 point models that can hit just as hard during particularly strong feats in many factions. I certainly recall receiving huge walloping from cheap sources plenty of times. My gut tells me this is more a case of Skorne Wartortoise lists are not teched against. There's not enough Skorne players so they fit nicely into that environment as a skew that people haven't prepared an answer for. As such, the answers they themselves offer generate a good number of favourable matches when picking tournament pairs. I don't feel that's a flaw with the power level of the model - just an advantage we're enjoying for a time. Maybe we'll see some challenges to tortoise lists at the next meta shake-up (probably with the release of crucible guard.)
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Apr 19, 2018 14:06:25 GMT
Woah there, that is a LOT of nerfs if you want it to remain at 17 points. Keep in mind the relative strength of the other Vale engines. Your suggestions would pretty much make it a "never-include"
Though I do agree it is too strong for its points, though I think part of that is that our similarly costed models are over priced. I would just bump its cost to 20, maybe reduce speed to 7 (no need to make it faster than some cavalry, it's a freaking turtle).
If they reduced it's spd to 6 it stops serving as a front line piece and becomes more of a line holder, which means its shooting would need to come up or it would need some other tech. It does have that giant tower with a horn-blower on the back that does nothing. I could see that changed to some kind of leadership ability. Like able to give battle orders, or maybe Veteran Leader... But both of those would make it a weird inclusion into IWH.
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didder
Junior Strategist
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Post by didder on Apr 19, 2018 14:06:51 GMT
I think our stable of heavy beasts is in poor shape. Soldiers and Sentries are the only two I'm slightly excited to field, but the Soldier is very susceptible to control effects like Telekinesis, and can only survive a melee engagement if backed by the often-sprayed-dead Agonizer. The Sentry can really struggle to kill much sometimes too. The Archidons and Rhinodon are decent. I don't begrudge them. The rest of our heavies put a sour taste in my mouth when I think about how tight their design leash is. I hate the two def our entire heavy chassis lost for purely lore-related reasons. The Gladiator got more expensive in our redesign. Significantly, Chiron and Despoiler, two great character heavies, are languishing in theme purgatory and bonded to intensely sub par warlocks. I consider Tiberion overcosted by a lot. Molik has a lot glass in his cannon. The Sentinel, Bronzeback, and Canonneer I can't help but think of as liabilities that will hardly ever meet their potential.
So, to me the excellence of Animantarax's serves a very important purpose: They are actually good and they don't rely on Rush from the Gladiator. I wouldn't mind a small tweak to them, such as losing trample. Their trample is only ever a gun range extender, which is not what trample is supposed to be
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Apr 19, 2018 14:09:41 GMT
I think our stable of heavy beasts is in poor shape. Soldiers and Sentries are the only two I'm slightly excited to field, but the Soldier is very susceptible to control effects like Telekinesis, and can only survive a melee engagement if backed by the often-sprayed-dead Agonizer. The Sentry can really struggle to kill much sometimes too. The Archidons and Rhinodon are decent. I don't begrudge them. The rest of our heavies put a sour taste in my mouth when I think about how tight their design leash is. I hate the two def our entire heavy chassis lost for purely lore-related reasons. The Gladiator got more expensive in our redesign. Significantly, Chiron and Despoiler, two great character heavies, are languishing in theme purgatory and bonded to intensely sub par warlocks. I consider Tiberion overcosted by a lot. Molik has a lot glass in his cannon. The Sentinel, Bronzeback, and Canonneer I can't help but think of as liabilities that will hardly ever meet their potential. So, to me the excellence of Animantarax's serves a very important purpose: They are actually good and they don't rely on Rush from the Gladiator. I wouldn't mind a small tweak to them, such as losing trample. Their trample is only ever a gun range extender, which is not what trample is supposed to be I've basically heard from a bunch of top-tier players that the only reason Skorne has competitive-Ness with the likes of Cygnar or Cryx is because of the turtle. Some themes are supposed to have aggressively costed models, this may be one of them.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 19, 2018 14:17:45 GMT
I've basically heard from a bunch of top-tier players that the only reason Skorne has competitive-Ness with the likes of Cygnar or Cryx is because of the turtle. Some themes are supposed to have aggressively costed models, this may be one of them. They did not touch the wraith engine after all and that thing having incorporeal causes issues in many matchups. edit : I want to change my speed reduction to 7 but I would rather see the SA go to speed 6 and lose trample than speed 7 lose trample and get some other nerf too.
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boozy
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Post by boozy on Apr 19, 2018 15:13:59 GMT
I think the value of the model compared to point cost needs to factor in actual model sales.
I can think of a time (the entire time the model existed before the CID buff) in which it didn't move off shelves at all. I've been kicking myself for not buying two when they were discounted down to $55USD a pop on many retailers sites.
Huge-based models are a significant investment for both the producers and retailers. They need to sell. Plus, they also are important for promoting the hobby. People get more interested in the game when they walk by if there's big models doing things.
Are they OP? Yeah. They needed to be though for non-gaming reasons at the time. A future Skorne CID likely will see them reigned in, but not by too much. They'll likely fill a niche as a premier non-battlegroup shooty platform, and see it's melee output toned down. A corresponding buff to our battlegroup models in beaty power for cost will keep them both valid choices in the future.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 19, 2018 15:46:29 GMT
Nah. Let's have our time in the sun. We've lived in the darkness long enough, there is no reason to shade our own eyes. Others will do that for us.
Do you really want to owe your success to crutching on a single OP model? Heck, even most of the other Skorne players in this thread are admitting the SA is overpowered.
And the "gotta fight for my tribe!" mentality is just toxic and bad for the game as a whole, no matter who's putting it forward.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 19, 2018 16:01:48 GMT
Nah. Let's have our time in the sun. We've lived in the darkness long enough, there is no reason to shade our own eyes. Others will do that for us.
Do you really want to owe your success to crutching on a single OP model? Heck, even most of the other Skorne players in this thread are admitting the SA is overpowered.
And the "gotta fight for my tribe!" mentality is just toxic and bad for the game as a whole, no matter who's putting it forward.
I'm not against nerfing it, I think the OP goes way too far though. I won't defend the tribal mentality (because you are right), but I think it's super silly to overreact to the power of a model because our baseline has been so low for so long. It's kind of nice to have a feared model for once. I'm not at all convinced that the SA is so far above the power curve as to create an NPE that needs to be nerfed because of that. It's strong, for sure, and maybe it would be more fair if it cost more, but that's true of most of the battle engines so it seems about on par to me. As far as appealing to my pride, that's not a good argument. My success is always due in part to the strength of my models and my ability to use them, as is true of every player in this game. Sometimes more based on the models (very rare in Skorne), sometimes less, but always a decent mix. I fully admit any success is provided in part by the strength of the models I choose to put on the table.
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 19, 2018 17:43:32 GMT
I think it'll need to be shown to be bending how other factions build their lists before it'll see nerfing. This has been the case with most other models that get the axe.
Nemo3 only had a 35ish percent win rate at the OTC but that's partially because everybody was building to counter him.
Skorne had something like 70ish+ win rate with a very high proliferation of derp turtle. For upcomming events like the WTC it'll be impossible to ignore skorne and the turtle so we'll see if people start talking about their team's Skorne drop instead of a Cygnar (tack cryx DH and BI lists on there as well) drop.
As the more talked about bogeymen disappear don't be surprised if the eye of PP starts to find the next one.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 19, 2018 17:55:59 GMT
I think it'll need to be shown to be bending how other factions build their lists before it'll see nerfing. This has been the case with most other models that get the axe. Nemo3 only had a 35ish percent win rate at the OTC but that's partially because everybody was building to counter him. Skorne had something like 70ish+ win rate with a very high proliferation of derp turtle. For upcomming events like the WTC it'll be impossible to ignore skorne and the turtle so we'll see if people start talking about their team's Skorne drop instead of a Cygnar (tack cryx DH and BI lists on there as well) drop. As the more talked about bogeymen disappear don't be surprised if the eye of PP starts to find the next one. I would not be surprised if it gets a nerf before christmas. Especialy once the nemo nerfs go into play. It should have never come out of CiD the way it is.
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granor
Junior Strategist
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Post by granor on Apr 19, 2018 18:19:47 GMT
It should have never come out of CiD the way it is. It didn't after CID before full release it gained the independent attack rule (attacking before moving with the side spears) and 1 point of arm. I think that was it but if anyone else remembers more let me know
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Apr 19, 2018 19:36:09 GMT
I've had some other people basically describe the problem thusly:
The turtle is an issue, not because there is no counter-play, nor because it is so strong you can't ever defeat it, but because it dominates list construction so much and has little to no effective weaknesses of its own. It's part of a larger problem for Skorne because there isn't much (any?) reason to play without it in the themes it is allowed in for almost everyone, and also because without it there isn't anything particularly good available to those themes.
You could address just it, and take Skorne out of any competitive running (which it isn't dominating at all, btw). But the better solution is to address the issue faction wide.
For example, Skorne's heavy shooting options are... Lack luster, at best. The Titan chassis, outside of a few casters, isn't very good either, and certainly not much you can build a list around, at least in top level competition. By the turtle is both so strong, so fast, and so durable, and with it's own reasonable enough guns, it out classes any other Skorne options anyway, even if they were better priced.
As it exists now, it basically defines the themes available to it, much like our Beast Handlers, or Menoth Choir, etc. Only I don't think it was their intention to make the Turtle a faction definer.
Then again, the Northkin theme pretty much doesn't work without their Hoochhauler. Convergence leans just as heavily on their TEP with some of their casters. So maybe this really was their intention?
So the answer isn't very simple.
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