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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 13, 2018 16:12:48 GMT
As someone who played warhammer for 18 years before grinding my teeth on this un, I can appreciate your struggle. Very different game. The best advice I can give is not to bother yourself about the win. Think up dumb combinations you think might work, test them, have fun with that process. You are simply not going to win from someone with 15 years of experience because it's highly unlikely you will surprise them (despite all that warhammer experience across 5 very different sort of armies in my case). Most things you will think of they allready thought of themselves or have done to them, so cherish those losses because you learned something while they didn't There's a second point that's not as bleak as the above, kinda counter even. Play a practise game on the clock every ones in a while. You will be surprised what you will come up under the preasure of time (I know, Im notoriously slow) and how many things your experienced opponent will NOT think about during their hour of play. Too many possible interactions. This means, ironically, that you actually can surprise them because, being the noob that you are, you'll think up silly untournamentlike manouvres no experienced player in their right mind would consider, and as a result they don't. It will catch them.
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Post by jansuza on Apr 13, 2018 16:29:54 GMT
Ah welcome to the suck! I moved to Legion after about 17 years of playing Dark Eldar exclusively, and while it's been very difficult, it's been a worthwhile investment. You sound like you're investing a lot of time into the game, but remember that the learning curve is very high in Warmahordes, especially if you have a bit of a shark tank meta. I spent about a year and a half reading and rereading every faction's rules trying to at least know what my opponents' things could do, but it just doesn't really sink in until you've played against most things. Don't give up hope yet I picked Legion, because like Dark Eldar, they hit very fast and very hard, but break very easily. For a long time, I just assumed that any beast I committed would be dead the next round, and it's not far off. It made me focus on making sure that when things did commit, they did as much damage as possible, and I found that after a while, I could then start thinking on other things. So with only two years' experience, Legion for me is about hitting fast and hard, so I've been using Lylyth3 and Abby2 for about a year now. Both strike very far, and don't survive retaliation much. Abby2 is my list that asks a question, which is 'can you survive a list that threatens really far, and hits really hard'. It doesn't do well into shooting lists or things with lots of tricks. Lylyth 3 is my answer list, that tries to deal with all of the things Abby can't deal with. She's great vs shooting, she threatens as far as Abby with her beasts, and she has a few tricks up her sleeve. Tricks is something you mentioned, that you may not be seeing in your own faction just yet. Take Lylyth 3 for example. She has an ability to remove solos from 28" range, her whole army can ignore non-magical shooting if she wants, her bolt throwers in combination with ice witches can shove and knock things over from a very far way away, all beasts can ignore any magical bonuses to armour or defense because of the naga, slipstream allows you to re-allign your beasts as well as moving them closer to the enemy, her carniveans have two open hands, meaning that with a speed buff and slipstream, they can do two-handed throws from 10 inches away (which is crazy!), and the forsaken can punish any hordes list that spends a lot of fury and stands near them at the end of their activation. These are all things I have at my disposal. I may not use them all every game, but knowing that they're all there gives me loads more options in any match-up.
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Post by callios on Apr 15, 2018 10:06:55 GMT
Wow, that's a lot of feedback. Thank you all very, very much for your kind words and your help. My collection (so far *hehe*) consists of: -Warlocks-Thags 1 and 2 Kryssa Fyanna Lylyth1 -Warbeasts-Azrael Typhon 2x Carnivean/Ravagore/Scythean 2x Neraph 2x Angelius Seraph Naga Raek 4x Nephilim Bolt Thrower Nephilim Bloodseer 9-10x Shredder Blight Wasps -Units-Strider Scouts + UA Warspears + Cheiftain 2x Hellmouth Hex Hunters + Bayal Ice Witches Blackfrost Shard Raptors SPawning Vessel -Solos-Warmonger War Chief 2x Forsaken 2x Shepherd Anyssa Ryvaal Blighted Nyss Warlord Sorceres on Hellion 3x Spell Martyr Succubus Craelix Strider Deathstalker -Battle Engine-Throne The list i played last Thursday (our game day) was this: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0ug3g_cObfbfbubqbbbbfUkacococobkblaXjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Kryssa 1) Kryssa, Conviction of Everblight [+31] - Azrael [21] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Succubus [4] Annyssa Ryvaal [8] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Craelix, Fang of Everblight [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) [15] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Ice Witches [7] My main intention was to use the Hex Hunters as Jammers by granting them PROWL through Cloak of Ash, since the Thags1 Fog of War would have hindered my shooting capabilities. Did not work really well against a non-shooting Derwish-Spam =/ Before that, i played into Convergence (Axis with two TEPs). conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0taCkHaMkNaOaRbubbb9b9jxhWLegion Army - 72 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Carnivean [18] - Raek [8] - Scythean [16] - Seraph [14] - Typhon [20] - Succubus [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] The Forsaken [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)] Ice Witches [7] Throne of Everblight [16] After i weathered the TEPs templates and A LOT of countercharges i went in for the assassination, but -2 SPD on Axis Feat denied this quite effectively. One of my biggest flaws so far - as often reported by my opponents - is my defensive and sometimes even hesitant playstyle. Standing too far back really hinders my play. I know, LEGION is supposed to be the Predator, but every game i see the amount of models facing my army and the abilities they have and all i can think of is: "Whoa, how am i gonna handle THAT??" Soon after that, the game for me reduces itself to crisis management and trying to make my army work. Lost a lot of games 5-0 by scenario, while i was only paying attention to keeping my models alive. Guess i will have to do some "internal tweaking" as well and step up my attitude ;-) Apr 12, 2018 23:47:56 GMT 2 gordo said: Have you been paying attention to the latest points changes as part of the Primal Terrors update? Also, are your tables following the SR2017 rules (7 ish terrain pieces and LoS blocking in the center)? Both of these should help you eek out a few wins here and thereYes, i am using the post-CID rules and point values. Every game in our gaming group is SR2017 and using the clock. If you have further advice or questions, i am happy to answer as soon as possible. Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate your help *double thumbs up* Happy Gaming!! Callios
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 15, 2018 13:38:05 GMT
Wow, that's a lot of feedback. Thank you all very, very much for your kind words and your help. My collection (so far *hehe*) consists of: -Warlocks-Thags 1 and 2 Kryssa Fyanna Lylyth1 -Warbeasts-Azrael Typhon 2x Carnivean/Ravagore/Scythean 2x Neraph 2x Angelius Seraph Naga Raek 4x Nephilim Bolt Thrower Nephilim Bloodseer 9-10x Shredder Blight Wasps -Units-Strider Scouts + UA Warspears + Cheiftain 2x Hellmouth Hex Hunters + Bayal Ice Witches Blackfrost Shard Raptors SPawning Vessel -Solos-Warmonger War Chief 2x Forsaken 2x Shepherd Anyssa Ryvaal Blighted Nyss Warlord Sorceres on Hellion 3x Spell Martyr Succubus Craelix Strider Deathstalker -Battle Engine-Throne The list i played last Thursday (our game day) was this: conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0ug3g_cObfbfbubqbbbbfUkacococobkblaXjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Kryssa 1) Kryssa, Conviction of Everblight [+31] - Azrael [21] - Nephilim Bloodseer [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Succubus [4] Annyssa Ryvaal [8] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Craelix, Fang of Everblight [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) [15] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Ice Witches [7] My main intention was to use the Hex Hunters as Jammers by granting them PROWL through Cloak of Ash, since the Thags1 Fog of War would have hindered my shooting capabilities. Did not work really well against a non-shooting Derwish-Spam =/ Before that, i played into Convergence (Axis with two TEPs). conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0taCkHaMkNaOaRbubbb9b9jxhWLegion Army - 72 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Carnivean [18] - Raek [8] - Scythean [16] - Seraph [14] - Typhon [20] - Succubus [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] The Forsaken [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)] Ice Witches [7] Throne of Everblight [16] After i weathered the TEPs templates and A LOT of countercharges i went in for the assassination, but -2 SPD on Axis Feat denied this quite effectively. One of my biggest flaws so far - as often reported by my opponents - is my defensive and sometimes even hesitant playstyle. Standing too far back really hinders my play. I know, LEGION is supposed to be the Predator, but every game i see the amount of models facing my army and the abilities they have and all i can think of is: "Whoa, how am i gonna handle THAT??" Soon after that, the game for me reduces itself to crisis management and trying to make my army work. Lost a lot of games 5-0 by scenario, while i was only paying attention to keeping my models alive. Guess i will have to do some "internal tweaking" as well and step up my attitude ;-) Apr 12, 2018 23:47:56 GMT 2 gordo said: Have you been paying attention to the latest points changes as part of the Primal Terrors update? Also, are your tables following the SR2017 rules (7 ish terrain pieces and LoS blocking in the center)? Both of these should help you eek out a few wins here and thereYes, i am using the post-CID rules and point values. Every game in our gaming group is SR2017 and using the clock. If you have further advice or questions, i am happy to answer as soon as possible. Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate your help *double thumbs up* Happy Gaming!! Callios Everyone says Legion is hard and for a reason. Learning to play scenario game and how much push is hard. I would add Hexhunters to your Thagrosh1 list for this reason. Infantry unit will give you screen and with Bayal they make Battle Engines struggle. Also your scenario game will be easier. Best of luck to you and dont be discouraged. Results will come with time. It's the best time to play Legion in whole MK3.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 15, 2018 16:03:47 GMT
Ok so quick comment now. will be back later with more brain.
That is a really extensive collection of models. Really you're just not packing all the casters.
Second - those are not bad lists or bad ideas. But they failed because you got hammered by extremely powerful lists. Amon is bonkers. Double TEP is more so.
This is NO fault of your own. My biggest hatred for the longest time has been Convergence. More so than Cygnar and Cryx by a large margin.
Few small things about the games and your opponents. If they are going to drop overbearing lists like that, ask if you can keep playing after scenario ends the game. You yourself don't learn much if the game ends round 3 because they bullied you out of scenario and you haven't even traded pieces yet. (Not saying that happens every time, just a hypothetical.)
Ask your opponent what their list is weak against. If they are honest and want to help you get better they can tell you. But that doesn't mean you have to rewrite your list to take advantage of it. Just knowing can help you leverage certain models you are already using.
Lastly, and I'm sorry to say it, We do not have "boogeymen" lists/casters/models. We do not upset the meta (that I have ever seen outside whining about an easily counterable Fyanna 2). So you are literally playing with a disadvantage against power lists like Amon, vlad 1 rockets, Skorne cats, Wurmwood (yes I believe he is still just as good as always), Haley 3, and so on. But it's not impossible.
Anamag could be our "boogeyman". But seeing as how they have pulled her card from Warroom. I'm expecting nerfs to her as well as the Chosen that never got their cards released.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 15, 2018 17:48:30 GMT
Wait you ALLWAYS play on the clock? In that case I advice you to play without timerestrictions every so often, so that you don't fall down that spiral from tactical thought into crisis management.
Another thing that could help with that is to, after deployment, set yourself one or two tasks you want to test or achieve and focus on those. It's easy to get lost in thought of you want to do it all. That's not to say you don't grab an additional opportunity if one presents itself, just don't smack yourself over the head when you missed it.
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 15, 2018 21:10:30 GMT
My main intention was to use the Hex Hunters as Jammers by granting them PROWL through Cloak of Ash, since the Thags1 Fog of War would have hindered my shooting capabilities. The only thing Fog of War should have hurt was the Hex Hunters and Craelix. Your Beasts should be fine due to Eyeless Sight. Based off of you list, it seems like you want to do a lot of shooting. I would recommend taking a look at Lyllyth2.
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Post by callios on Apr 16, 2018 20:01:12 GMT
My main intention was to use the Hex Hunters as Jammers by granting them PROWL through Cloak of Ash, since the Thags1 Fog of War would have hindered my shooting capabilities. The only thing Fog of War should have hurt was the Hex Hunters and Craelix. Your Beasts should be fine due to Eyeless Sight. Based off of you list, it seems like you want to do a lot of shooting. I would recommend taking a look at Lyllyth2. My tendency to shooting is mainly born from my defensive playstyle. I advance too reluctantly and by doing so, can not set up any successful charges, so i am being charged most of the time. First impulse was to slow down and/or soften up my opponents models on their way to mine, which had varied results...
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 16, 2018 22:50:48 GMT
The only thing Fog of War should have hurt was the Hex Hunters and Craelix. Your Beasts should be fine due to Eyeless Sight. Based off of you list, it seems like you want to do a lot of shooting. I would recommend taking a look at Lyllyth2. My tendency to shooting is mainly born from my defensive playstyle. I advance too reluctantly and by doing so, can not set up any successful charges, so i am being charged most of the time. First impulse was to slow down and/or soften up my opponents models on their way to mine, which had varied results... Hardly anything in Warmachine has a defensive playstyle. Its good to be cautious (especially with Legion), however you should be hugging your opponent's threat ranges turn 1/2 as best you can.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Apr 17, 2018 11:59:27 GMT
My tendency to shooting is mainly born from my defensive playstyle. I advance too reluctantly and by doing so, can not set up any successful charges, so i am being charged most of the time. First impulse was to slow down and/or soften up my opponents models on their way to mine, which had varied results... Hardly anything in Warmachine has a defensive playstyle. Its good to be cautious (especially with Legion), however you should be hugging your opponent's threat ranges turn 1/2 as best you can. Agreed, you need to toe the line between giving away too much and not risking anything. If you are risking models you are losing board space, which will almost always disadvantage legion. We are very good with terrain, and we can't use it to our advantage if the opponent has taken the entire board away.
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Post by callios on Apr 21, 2018 20:33:12 GMT
Sooo, after having read all the nice and constructive feedback and feeling a little more motivated again, i built two lists that i am willing to keep testing and practising over the next weeks/months. Feel free to throw in your comments and/or ideas for streamlining. 1) Thags1 - CoD conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaCg_aReKbbbbfUbacococobjblaYjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Azrael [21] - Typhon [20] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Incubus (5) [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Ice Witches [7] After watching Chriss Orr win the SOO finale (congrats!) i remembered how good Thagrosh1 is in keeping models alive and mitigating some of my weaknesses in playstyle. If i am lucky, i will get Zuriel and the Incubi next week. Unlike Chris, i was not willing to use Minions - i see their potential and usefulness, but for me it does feel a bit like cheating on your faction. And since i will never be part of a bigger tournament, i guess this will be fine for me (until further practice an insight convince me otherwise, of course). 2) Fyanna - Ravens conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0lgNaPaPeJeJbdb9b9aXaXfTb3b4Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Ravens of War (Fyanna 2) Fyanna, Torment of Everblight [+28] - Angelius [17] - Angelius [17] - Neraph [12] - Neraph [12] Strider Deathstalker [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)] The Forsaken [4] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Hellmouth [6] Strider Scouts [9] - Strider Scout Officer & Musician [4] Not much to say here. I like Fyanna and the Angelius is one of my favourite beasts. Hellmouth should be tough enough under IRON FLESH to be a nuisance at least. Apart form these two lists, i would realy like to make a Lylyth1 Gunline work, but with "only" two Ravagores and Nephilim Bolt Throwers, my options IN THEME are quite limited. And out of theme... i think i'll pass. So what do you think? I know, lists alone rarely win games, but a sturdy house needs a good foundation ;-)
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 21, 2018 23:54:57 GMT
Sooo, after having read all the nice and constructive feedback and feeling a little more motivated again, i built two lists that i am willing to keep testing and practising over the next weeks/months. Feel free to throw in your comments and/or ideas for streamlining. 1) Thags1 - CoD conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaCg_aReKbbbbfUbacococobjblaYjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Azrael [21] - Typhon [20] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Incubus (5) [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Ice Witches [7] After watching Chriss Orr win the SOO finale (congrats!) i remembered how good Thagrosh1 is in keeping models alive and mitigating some of my weaknesses in playstyle. If i am lucky, i will get Zuriel and the Incubi next week. Unlike Chris, i was not willing to use Minions - i see their potential and usefulness, but for me it does feel a bit like cheating on your faction. And since i will never be part of a bigger tournament, i guess this will be fine for me (until further practice an insight convince me otherwise, of course). 2) Fyanna - Ravens conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0lgNaPaPeJeJbdb9b9aXaXfTb3b4Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Ravens of War (Fyanna 2) Fyanna, Torment of Everblight [+28] - Angelius [17] - Angelius [17] - Neraph [12] - Neraph [12] Strider Deathstalker [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)] The Forsaken [4] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Hellmouth [6] Strider Scouts [9] - Strider Scout Officer & Musician [4] Not much to say here. I like Fyanna and the Angelius is one of my favourite beasts. Hellmouth should be tough enough under IRON FLESH to be a nuisance at least. Apart form these two lists, i would realy like to make a Lylyth1 Gunline work, but with "only" two Ravagores and Nephilim Bolt Throwers, my options IN THEME are quite limited. And out of theme... i think i'll pass. So what do you think? I know, lists alone rarely win games, but a sturdy house needs a good foundation ;-) Both lists look good, however I would recommend fitting a Seraph into your Fyanna list.
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Post by callios on Apr 23, 2018 8:41:08 GMT
Ok, i'll try that one. conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0lgNaPaPeJaOcocobdb9aXaXfTb3b4Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Ravens of War (Fyanna 2) Fyanna, Torment of Everblight [+28] - Angelius [17] - Angelius [17] - Neraph [12] - Seraph [14] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Strider Deathstalker [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11] Hellmouth [6] Strider Scouts [9] - Strider Scout Officer & Musician [4]
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 23, 2018 13:09:18 GMT
Sooo, after having read all the nice and constructive feedback and feeling a little more motivated again, i built two lists that i am willing to keep testing and practising over the next weeks/months. Feel free to throw in your comments and/or ideas for streamlining. 1) Thags1 - CoD conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaCg_aReKbbbbfUbacococobjblaYjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Azrael [21] - Typhon [20] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Incubus (5) [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Ice Witches [7] After watching Chriss Orr win the SOO finale (congrats!) i remembered how good Thagrosh1 is in keeping models alive and mitigating some of my weaknesses in playstyle. If i am lucky, i will get Zuriel and the Incubi next week. Unlike Chris, i was not willing to use Minions - i see their potential and usefulness, but for me it does feel a bit like cheating on your faction. And since i will never be part of a bigger tournament, i guess this will be fine for me (until further practice an insight convince me otherwise, of course). Personally, I would drop the incubii and pick up another free warlord. As much of a fan of the incubii I am; I don't think you have enough small based models to really give meaningful choices in placing them. If you have 5 incubii and only 7 infantry models up the field the enemy is sure of where you will be replacing them and plan accordingly. I run 16 or so infantry models in the list I get the most use out of incubii. The opponent can never predict where I'll replace. So it could be the last two models in a zone contesting that turn into incubii and prevent scoring. Or it could be that one that is blocking up that charge lane. Or so on and so forth. But again, that's just me. I do encourage you to try it out and see how it works for you. If it does work well, keep them and just log my opinion for later (hopefully).
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Post by callios on Apr 24, 2018 18:12:46 GMT
Sooo, after having read all the nice and constructive feedback and feeling a little more motivated again, i built two lists that i am willing to keep testing and practising over the next weeks/months. Feel free to throw in your comments and/or ideas for streamlining. 1) Thags1 - CoD conflictchamber.com/#ca201b_-0uaCg_aReKbbbbfUbacococobjblaYjxLegion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Children of the Dragon (Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28] - Azrael [21] - Typhon [20] - Zuriel [18] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1] Blighted Nyss Warlord [5] Incubus (5) [0(6)] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Spell Martyr [1] Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9] - Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18] Ice Witches [7] After watching Chriss Orr win the SOO finale (congrats!) i remembered how good Thagrosh1 is in keeping models alive and mitigating some of my weaknesses in playstyle. If i am lucky, i will get Zuriel and the Incubi next week. Unlike Chris, i was not willing to use Minions - i see their potential and usefulness, but for me it does feel a bit like cheating on your faction. And since i will never be part of a bigger tournament, i guess this will be fine for me (until further practice an insight convince me otherwise, of course). Personally, I would drop the incubii and pick up another free warlord. As much of a fan of the incubii I am; I don't think you have enough small based models to really give meaningful choices in placing them. If you have 5 incubii and only 7 infantry models up the field the enemy is sure of where you will be replacing them and plan accordingly. I run 16 or so infantry models in the list I get the most use out of incubii. The opponent can never predict where I'll replace. So it could be the last two models in a zone contesting that turn into incubii and prevent scoring. Or it could be that one that is blocking up that charge lane. Or so on and so forth. But again, that's just me. I do encourage you to try it out and see how it works for you. If it does work well, keep them and just log my opinion for later (hopefully). I have to file this list under "play at a later time", since i could not get my hands on Zuriel and the Incubi *sadface* So for next game day (thursday) it will be Fyanna. I will try to report how it went ;-)
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