|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Apr 10, 2018 15:33:37 GMT
So, I was thinking about my favorite girl Rhyas. She turns melee armies up to 11. But, I got to thinking... Would a gunline army to support HER as she gets into melee be viable? I'm looking at archers, raptors, scouts... All would love Dash. Raptors and Archers would like Occultation. Ravagores work as rapport targets.
I may have made a post about this before, but I don't think it got much feedback. I don't remember.
So, how about it? Does a Rhyas1 gunline army to support her assassination attempt sound viable? Let me know what y'all think, and what list you might make.
|
|
thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480 
|
Post by thelat on Apr 10, 2018 17:43:11 GMT
You confuse me. But I support this anyway and will come back with some thoughts.
EDIT: OK, so, what we're trying to solve here is supporting Rhyas. Rhyas is basically unstoppable. If there is a spot that she can move to, she can move to it without any problems. Bolt Throwers don't actually help with getting her to her target beyond carving out a space for her. She needs threat extension and protection when she moves in for the kill. That's the Seraph, Proteus, and maybe the Neraph.
|
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Apr 10, 2018 18:28:08 GMT
You confuse me. But I support this anyway and will come back with some thoughts. EDIT: OK, so, what we're trying to solve here is supporting Rhyas. Rhyas is basically unstoppable. If there is a spot that she can move to, she can move to it without any problems. Bolt Throwers don't actually help with getting her to her target beyond carving out a space for her. She needs threat extension and protection when she moves in for the kill. That's the Seraph, Proteus, and maybe the Neraph. Not my question, unfortunately. |
|
thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
|
Post by thelat on Apr 10, 2018 18:49:09 GMT
Then I think it's probably not that viable. You'll get better results from jamming and then charging Rhyas through.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Apr 10, 2018 19:39:32 GMT
I would not think Rhyas hits so strongly in melee that this would be reliable. It seems you would be playing to the secondary part of her kit (her personal threat rather than army support).
Rhyas seems she would be most (only, really) viable in Primal Terrors, which more or less necessitates a Blightbringer, which in turn takes up just about all her beast points available. Your could throw away your third solo to get a Ravagore after that I suppose so she can kinda hide inside its Scather from non 2" reach infantry.
|
|
thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
|
Post by thelat on Apr 10, 2018 19:47:41 GMT
I would not think Rhyas hits so strongly in melee that this would be reliable. It seems you would be playing to the secondary part of her kit (her personal threat rather than army support). Rhyas seems she would be most (only, really) viable in Primal Terrors, which more or less necessitates a Blightbringer, which in turn takes up just about all her beast points available. Your could throw away your third solo to get a Ravagore after that I suppose so she can kinda hide inside its Scather from non 2" reach infantry. I'd recommend the Blightbringer regardless. One application of the strength buff and she hits just shy of The Butcher. |
|
newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
|
Post by newsun on Apr 10, 2018 20:28:39 GMT
Ok so I'm going to assume this is the question for my response. Let me know it is off base.
Can I make a gunline army with rhyas1 which is competitive and synergizes with her melee threat?
Let's start with the objectives. Rhyas needs to be killing models in melee or threatening such that key models are out of the game effectively or falling out of zones for scenario.
The gunline will need to either shoot so much off at range that the opponent must advance into range and survive any counter barrage of ranged attacks. Or push the shooting forward and survive any melee reprive. So it's either force them to come or bring the fight closer. Now rhyas does not protect not than one beast with her spell list, so this is not looking great for option two. Option one usually relies on us getting in removing key piece and often getting back out to work. One again she does not really help this much.
Ok let's look at our shooting options of note:
Azrael pow 16 spears, no way in theme to improve with rhyas unless shard are there.
Arch angel pow 16 fire aoe which improves other fire shots. Expensive point wise, ready Target that can get focused on, no added survivability from caster.
Ravagore pow 15 long range aoe
Carnivean pow 14 medium range, tanky beast option moderately expensive.
Bolt thrower pow 14 fury intensive, pushed away,so depending on target good utility or counter to idea
Archers can put out a couple of strong shots when clumped up and benefit from stealth efficiency decreases with models removed.
Seraph has good utility in general and can be solid shooting with AA.
Same for Angelius.
Teraph is decent shooting with AA
So I'll also assume theme, make a case for it if desire out of theme.
This basically means Ravens oracles or children.
Rhyas does not want a big battle group due to low fury stat in general. Oracles is probably better using double thrones for the awesome synergy with her feat meaning less likely to focus on gun line, probably also want seraph here at the least. This is 46 points so about half the army. Can we bring enough find which also hit hard enough in melee later? Probably at least one carni 64 points now. 41 points remain what will help accomplish your goal best? 2 forsaken are pretty much required free models and likely a blood seer for additional slip stream and improving thrones.
Ok children
Azrael
Plus X Bolt throwers
Archers
Az+ 3 bt is two free models.
Let's focus shooting with two units archers
Craelix synergizes, 1-2 warlords and probably mandatory 3 shepherds.
I'm at 68/75. Will this list survive return fire? What are the last 7 points and what to do with all this shooting once the lines clash as most of it does not hit hard in melee. They is no threat extension
Now once we've built both of these, let's consider is there another caster who does this better with basically same list? What are the weaknesses and can they easily be handled by it lost pair? Finally, could rhyas get work done better with a different list entirely?
Hope that helps you start evaluating this further. I don't know the answer and play testing would be required.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 10, 2018 20:29:46 GMT
Using a gunline to support her assassination seems rough. Usually in a gameplan like that (thinking about warhammer here) you would use ranged pressure to make the enemy come to you, but given ranged threats in this game and scenario rules that just doesn't happen in warmachine to the extend it's gonna help rhyas assassinate. There won't be an incentive to come close.
Which means you must make them and I think ravens is the place to do it. Raptors protected by hellmouths, grotesques and striderdualbladeguys to goad them to the middle of the board and stop dodling in the rear, angels to further dictate positioning etc.
Maybe not a gunline persé, but you need those flankers and trickster which are often part of gunlines in other wargames. How many guns are too many? The ones that stop you from taking (some of) those units?
|
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Apr 12, 2018 3:25:51 GMT
I would not think Rhyas hits so strongly in melee that this would be reliable. It seems you would be playing to the secondary part of her kit (her personal threat rather than army support). Rhyas seems she would be most (only, really) viable in Primal Terrors, which more or less necessitates a Blightbringer, which in turn takes up just about all her beast points available. Your could throw away your third solo to get a Ravagore after that I suppose so she can kinda hide inside its Scather from non 2" reach infantry. I normally only play with her personal threat. Her spells help her army support her, based off of my experience. Usually gameplan is Rhyas' army helping her barrel towards the enemy warlock/warcaster. I disagree on the necessity of the Blightbringer, in this. Blightbringer is helpful to be sure, but not helpful enough for Rhyas, I think. |
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Apr 12, 2018 3:29:19 GMT
Using a gunline to support her assassination seems rough. Usually in a gameplan like that (thinking about warhammer here) you would use ranged pressure to make the enemy come to you, but given ranged threats in this game and scenario rules that just doesn't happen in warmachine to the extend it's gonna help rhyas assassinate. There won't be an incentive to come close. Which means you must make them and I think ravens is the place to do it. Raptors protected by hellmouths, grotesques and striderdualbladeguys to goad them to the middle of the board and stop dodling in the rear, angels to further dictate positioning etc. Maybe not a gunline persé, but you need those flankers and trickster which are often part of gunlines in other wargames. How many guns are too many? The ones that stop you from taking (some of) those units? In my imagination, I was thinking that the guns would kill enough models that Rhyas could run her full distance every turn until she was within charge distance of the warlock/warcaster and still be safe (more than likely with the help of a Protector and a Seraph). |
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Apr 12, 2018 3:32:08 GMT
Ok so I'm going to assume this is the question for my response. Let me know it is off base. Can I make a gunline army with rhyas1 which is competitive and synergizes with her melee threat? Let's start with the objectives. Rhyas needs to be killing models in melee or threatening such that key models are out of the game effectively or falling out of zones for scenario. The gunline will need to either shoot so much off at range that the opponent must advance into range and survive any counter barrage of ranged attacks. Or push the shooting forward and survive any melee reprive. So it's either force them to come or bring the fight closer. Now rhyas does not protect not than one beast with her spell list, so this is not looking great for option two. Option one usually relies on us getting in removing key piece and often getting back out to work. One again she does not really help this much. Ok let's look at our shooting options of note: Azrael pow 16 spears, no way in theme to improve with rhyas unless shard are there. Arch angel pow 16 fire aoe which improves other fire shots. Expensive point wise, ready Target that can get focused on, no added survivability from caster. Ravagore pow 15 long range aoe Carnivean pow 14 medium range, tanky beast option moderately expensive. Bolt thrower pow 14 fury intensive, pushed away,so depending on target good utility or counter to idea Archers can put out a couple of strong shots when clumped up and benefit from stealth efficiency decreases with models removed. Seraph has good utility in general and can be solid shooting with AA. Same for Angelius. Teraph is decent shooting with AA So I'll also assume theme, make a case for it if desire out of theme. This basically means Ravens oracles or children. Rhyas does not want a big battle group due to low fury stat in general. Oracles is probably better using double thrones for the awesome synergy with her feat meaning less likely to focus on gun line, probably also want seraph here at the least. This is 46 points so about half the army. Can we bring enough find which also hit hard enough in melee later? Probably at least one carni 64 points now. 41 points remain what will help accomplish your goal best? 2 forsaken are pretty much required free models and likely a blood seer for additional slip stream and improving thrones. Ok children Azrael Plus X Bolt throwers Archers Az+ 3 bt is two free models. Let's focus shooting with two units archers Craelix synergizes, 1-2 warlords and probably mandatory 3 shepherds. I'm at 68/75. Will this list survive return fire? What are the last 7 points and what to do with all this shooting once the lines clash as most of it does not hit hard in melee. They is no threat extension Now once we've built both of these, let's consider is there another caster who does this better with basically same list? What are the weaknesses and can they easily be handled by it lost pair? Finally, could rhyas get work done better with a different list entirely? Hope that helps you start evaluating this further. I don't know the answer and play testing would be required. Cheers Not necessarily in response to anything you posted, but thanks for the in depth analysis! I'm going to see what I can come up with, and I'll post a battle report if I have the time to play. It will more than likely be out of theme, to be honest, but I'll have to see. |
|
|
|
Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 12, 2018 6:27:26 GMT
Using a gunline to support her assassination seems rough. Usually in a gameplan like that (thinking about warhammer here) you would use ranged pressure to make the enemy come to you, but given ranged threats in this game and scenario rules that just doesn't happen in warmachine to the extend it's gonna help rhyas assassinate. There won't be an incentive to come close. Which means you must make them and I think ravens is the place to do it. Raptors protected by hellmouths, grotesques and striderdualbladeguys to goad them to the middle of the board and stop dodling in the rear, angels to further dictate positioning etc. Maybe not a gunline persé, but you need those flankers and trickster which are often part of gunlines in other wargames. How many guns are too many? The ones that stop you from taking (some of) those units? In my imagination, I was thinking that the guns would kill enough models that Rhyas could run her full distance every turn until she was within charge distance of the warlock/warcaster and still be safe (more than likely with the help of a Protector and a Seraph). I honestly think we don't hit hard enough for that. If that's the objective though, you want things that can hit hard and deep on the featturn as well, to clear out that path you want. Terrors wouldbe a good place, it offers most beasts, forward deployement to add to preasure, free hellmouths and of course spearchukkas (can't for the life if me remember the right name atm). Maybe look into minions as well for a third ranged unit? On the other hand chukkas want BB in this setup, no points for a minion unit probably (that won't benefit from the feat either). |
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Apr 12, 2018 13:48:29 GMT
I just can't imagine that Rhyas with only Critical Decap and PS 13 and fury 5 has enough oomph to reliably assassinate. Hordes casters will just transfer away the one critical, and as rule it's pretty unreliable.
Against squishier casters, for sure, but that feels like a pretty limited game plan and not a very flexible "drop". To me you would want to be about to always THREATEN the assassin run while still enabling the threat of the rest of your army, which in her case is going to be melee only.
Take a look at JVMs Rhyas list from SOO. It was double Thrones and Scytheans, if I recall, which in their own have super strong assassin potential on her feat turn. Played in Oracles with BFS and Bayal to lower defenses and proc Battlewizard from the feat attacks, you've got extremely unpredictable threat angles. Then you have the icing which is Rhyas herself. I think my version of the list would look something like this:
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - rhyas Oracles
Theme: Oracles of Annihilation
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30
- Zuriel - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18)
- Scythean - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Seraph - PC: 14
Throne of Everblight - PC: 16
Beast Mistress - PC: 0
- Shredder - PC: 4
- Shredder - PC: 4
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight - PC: 0
Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
THEME: Oracles of Annihilation
You end up with a crazy amount of unpredictable threat angles. Hex Hunters Shadow Binding and Hex Blasting everything, Ice Witches for Puppet Master, even the Mistress and Shredders enjoying their additional attack and placement for fun Flank antics.
If you can get a Murderous Rapport Scythean anywhere near their caster... *shudder*
|
|
|
|
Post by davycannonhound on Apr 12, 2018 15:57:14 GMT
I just can't imagine that Rhyas with only Critical Decap and PS 13 and fury 5 has enough oomph to reliably assassinate. Hordes casters will just transfer away the one critical, and as rule it's pretty unreliable. Against squishier casters, for sure, but that feels like a pretty limited game plan and not a very flexible "drop". To me you would want to be about to always THREATEN the assassin run while still enabling the threat of the rest of your army, which in her case is going to be melee only. Take a look at JVMs Rhyas list from SOO. It was double Thrones and Scytheans, if I recall, which in their own have super strong assassin potential on her feat turn. Played in Oracles with BFS and Bayal to lower defenses and proc Battlewizard from the feat attacks, you've got extremely unpredictable threat angles. Then you have the icing which is Rhyas herself. I think my version of the list would look something like this: War Room Army Legion of Everblight - rhyas Oracles Theme: Oracles of Annihilation 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30 - Zuriel - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Scythean - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Seraph - PC: 14 Throne of Everblight - PC: 16 Beast Mistress - PC: 0 - Shredder - PC: 4 - Shredder - PC: 4 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9 Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Bayal, Hound of Everblight - PC: 0 Ice Witches - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 THEME: Oracles of Annihilation You end up with a crazy amount of unpredictable threat angles. Hex Hunters Shadow Binding and Hex Blasting everything, Ice Witches for Puppet Master, even the Mistress and Shredders enjoying their additional attack and placement for fun Flank antics. If you can get a Murderous Rapport Scythean anywhere near their caster... *shudder* I’m no stranger to Rhyas. I know how she’s typically played. I’ve done the whole Scythean slingshot before. I’ve killed several casters with her before as well (she’s good against hordes thanks to spirit eater on her sword). I was only trying to get creative and find a strange way to play her that might actually work. |
|
newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
|
Post by newsun on Apr 12, 2018 20:22:51 GMT
If I was going it off theme with her, I'd start with this base:
43 / 75 Army
Rhyas, Sigil of Everblight - WB: +30
- Proteus - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Nephilim Bloodseer - PC: 8
Throne of Everblight - PC: 16
Throne of Everblight - PC: 16
32 points to get any further support you might need. I'd consider a couple of gobber tinkers to keep the thrones topped off on the way in. If adding anymore beasts there could be fury issues, though it might not matter if the plan is to always assassinate on feat turn. Maybe golab to also Sprint in and finish something after a stalker has plinked it.
|
|
