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Post by zwergenkrieger on Apr 9, 2018 13:38:00 GMT
Hi all,
I'm about to start a new faction and one thing I really like to field is cavalry. Menoth has some pretty nice looking models and therefore I think about starting that faction.
But what about the Exemplar Cavalry? Is it any good? Which casters would you recommend?
Thanks in advance.
ZK
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 9, 2018 13:48:51 GMT
On the vengers, we're close enough to CID that anything we say is going to have that little * next to it. They're decent enough: their speed values are enough to deliver them as-is, and blessed lances are no joke. However, their stats are a bit low until they get battle driven, which is usually an opponent's choice. many will either not tough the vengers until they charge, or will kill two and then have a way of denying the charge.
Your best for running them are Kreoss 3, who passively makes them awesome and then has upkeeps, and Testament, whose feat turn means they have to guard their caster very carefully or eat 4 vengers right past the army. Other high points for vengers are Kreoss 2, who can make impact attacks a guarantee, and vindictus, who can actually use them as a dangerous front line to deliver his knights.
Finally, Harbinger greatly appreciates large, LOS blocking bases that aren't warjacks. However, she's not so great in the exemplar theme, instead Masses would usually be the theme of choice.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Apr 9, 2018 14:03:13 GMT
On the Flip side, I really enjoy the Speed offered by the Flame bringers. These gals are fast. 9 speed means 18 inches on a run and 12 (+.5 melee) Charges. They do a decent amount of damage against solos at pow 9 Weapon Master (plus a probable charge die) and they murder Infantry. (My Thyra list isn't intended to fight Jacks.)
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Provengreil
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Choir Kills: 12
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 9, 2018 14:11:05 GMT
Venger lances are 2" reach though, so on a charge they actually out threat the flamebringers(who do not bring flame).
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 9, 2018 14:23:47 GMT
Flame bringers are amazing, like seriously, I want to own 2 units so bad. They mulch infantry have native frikking pathfinder plus parry, speed 9 and repo 5...oh muh gosh I love them...
Vengers are meh, but CiD is coming in a month or so so that will change
As far as casters that love flame bringers?
They really want a caster that can help deliver them, skews their def, and helps them hit harder (pow 9 wm is good and all but not so great into arm 18+)
That gives us: Harby: Def 16, guided hand for crit fishing, and crusaders call for spd 11. High Reclaimer: Ash clouds for def skew/delivery from guns. Hand of fate to crit fish and spike damage. Feat to bring them back. Kreoss 3: Ignite and arcane ward on them are great. Thyra: Carnage to handle super high def, silence of death to crank them to P+S 11 Weapon-masters, occultation to deliver them, and a feat that gives them +2 to threat. She runs them very well. Vindictus: He is better in exemplar, but he actually helps flameguard a lot. Flame bringers love defenders ward and his feat almost guarantees they get delivered.
Bonus round Jank: Durst: Take them with durst, a handful of templars, on feat turn screen your jacks with them for def 14 Arm 25 warjacks. They are all large bases so the flamebringers block LoS to the heavies. They also work well with him because they can spread out after feat turn and wreck things where he tends to like to brick up.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Apr 9, 2018 14:54:13 GMT
Venger lances are 2" reach though, so on a charge they actually out threat the flamebringers(who do not bring flame). But the Lance Rule... I hope that gets changed in CID even if it does currently work as intended...
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 9, 2018 14:57:43 GMT
I won't be getting my hopes up on that. "Working as intended" and "STFU" are interchangeable when PP posts.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 9, 2018 15:00:09 GMT
I won't be getting my hopes up on that. "Working as intended" and "STFU" are interchangeable when PP posts. Yeah lance rule is here to stay. I wouldn't even ask for a change, you might get banned/flagged. The issue is, I don't know what they are going to change to vengers, because battle driven is pretty good, and with the right in faction buff they can wreck the world. I dunno, thats a hard one for me
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 9, 2018 15:02:14 GMT
We don't even know if they will change in the first place. I expect a points decrease or nothing.
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Post by HighPaladin on Apr 9, 2018 15:04:21 GMT
Flame bringers are amazing, like seriously, I want to own 2 units so bad. They mulch infantry have native frikking pathfinder plus parry, speed 9 and repo 5...oh muh gosh I love them...
I do love Flame Bringers and played them tons at the start of MK3.
I think the prevalence of themes really hurts them, though - very few of the casters who really want them want to be in Guardians, because the opportunity cost is generally pretty high compared to running another (better?) theme, like Faithful Masses.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 9, 2018 15:13:21 GMT
Flame bringers are amazing, like seriously, I want to own 2 units so bad. They mulch infantry have native frikking pathfinder plus parry, speed 9 and repo 5...oh muh gosh I love them...
I do love Flame Bringers and played them tons at the start of MK3.
I think the prevalence of themes really hurts them, though - very few of the casters who really want them want to be in Guardians, because the opportunity cost is generally pretty high compared to running another (better?) theme, like Faithful Masses.
I actually think the flame-guard theme is pretty good, its just that it is more about threshing infantry and having a bunch of harder to remove tough infantry. The issue is, in the current meta, most lists pairs are: List1: Heavies List2: Dudes The flameguard theme does not really deal with heavy bricks because of the lower pow of the theme models. Luckily, casters like Thyra can help with that a bit, and you can always include ayana and holt or gorman for some extra arm cracking. Temple flameguard under Silence of death and ayana and holt hit at P+S 14. Flamebringers hit and P+S 13 Weaponmaster. Not the best arm cracking, but enough to chew through some heavies. Another thing is the theme gives you access to pyrus and Nicea, who are amazing combat solos. Something to keep in kind about faith-full masses infantry, is that they die in droves...like literally, they die by the handful most games I play. Flameguard infantry have better defensive stats and take defensive buffs better and have more staying power. Sure idrians are amazing skirmishing infantry, but the die pretty quickly when facing average infantry removal tech. Sure minifeat turn keeps them fairly safe, but any turn after or prior they are really vulnerable.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 9, 2018 15:14:53 GMT
Protectorate cavalry is in a good spot. There are reasons to run all pieces.
Flame Bringers are extremely self sufficient: competitively costed, good survival stats that take to buffs well, excellent native threat range, Pathfinder to get there, enough POW to cream infantry and do damage to light 'jacks/'beasts or light armor heavies, a good critical effect, and good MAT with a boosted charge to apply it. Plus a high number of attacks with Side Step, Reposition 5", and Parry. They're hard to hit, extremely hard to pin down, and really fast. I would honestly consider them in every list if I could take them out of Guardians of the Temple. Notable standouts: anyone with a DEF buff, anyone with a damage buff, anyone with an infantry threat range increase. This is most of our 'casters, so you will have plenty of options.
Vengers are good, but need some help. My biggest gripe with them is their need to take damage to be on par with other factions' heavy cavalry options. Typically the way Protectorate buffs work is that we start below the curve, but apply buff and we rise to just above it. Vengers, however, start below the curve at POW 14 and hit POW 16 when they take damage - which is equal to what most other factions' have normally when charging in (Cryx is a notable standout, but engineering a -2/-3/-5 ARM swing in Cryx is pretty easy). Their DEF/ARM is okay and the ARM rises to an above average level with Battle Driven. They get Pathfinder too, but again this is entirely dependent on the opponent targeting them. The big problem is that their tech (Blessed Magical Lances) is highly situational and relies on the target either being Incorporeal or benefitting from a DEF/ARM spell, unlike other factions' options (Cygnar shoots, Khador KDs, Cryx has Ghostly, Ret shoots worse than Cygnar, Trolls slam, etc.). This wouldn't be an issue if they were cheaper, but at 20 points they're a premium unit. They need some support to get mileage. Anyone who increases their threat can appreciate them (Vindy, Harby). Melee damage buffs like Ignite are okay, but more is usually needed. Testament can Revive them and they can go deep on his Feat turn, which is why you sometimes see them with him. Protection also helps: Vindictus' Feat, Thyra's Occultation are two great examples of buffs that help keep them safe on the approach. Special shout out to Kreoss3 who turns their damage up to 11 by giving them Divine Inspiration.
Gravus is a good solo. He provides KD/Stationary immunity to Exemplars, which is situational but highly helpful when it matters. He takes souls from Exemplars and hits hard, too. And Dispel on his flail can be pretty nice, either to smack that annoying Arcane Shield off or to clear Rebuke off a squad that needs to get busy. And with SPD 8, he can be where he is needed. He's a little pricey for what he does, but that's my only gripe. He is solid when he is needed and can perform even when his entire kit outside of hitting is useless.
The Champion of the Order of the Wall is the new hotness with reason. Good threat for a solo, very hard hitting (harder than Gravus), and durable. The epitome of a self sufficient missile. Plus, he can be taken in our most powerful theme. Works great with everyone as pretty much any buff you give him will just make him more of a headache for your opponent. Special shoutout to Harby, who turns his durability up to stupid, hair-pulling levels.
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Post by HighPaladin on Apr 9, 2018 15:24:18 GMT
I do love Flame Bringers and played them tons at the start of MK3.
I think the prevalence of themes really hurts them, though - very few of the casters who really want them want to be in Guardians, because the opportunity cost is generally pretty high compared to running another (better?) theme, like Faithful Masses.
Something to keep in kind about faith-full masses infantry, is that they die in droves...like literally, they die by the handful most games I play. Flameguard infantry have better defensive stats and take defensive buffs better and have more staying power. Sure idrians are amazing skirmishing infantry, but the die pretty quickly when facing average infantry removal tech. Sure minifeat turn keeps them fairly safe, but any turn after or prior they are really vulnerable.
Oh, absolutely - I would never contest that the infantry is the best part of Faithful Masses.
Idrians are fine, but the power of the theme comes from both the Paladin boat and Hand of Vengeance. Which leads you to build in one of a couple of archetypes, all of which can be very good in Faithful Masses, depending on the caster.
1) You play a single unit with a bunch of Heavies (Durst, maybe Amon) 2) You play the high quality solos with 1-2 units (very much Harbinger, can play with Thyra) 3) A ridiculous swarm of the mediocre troops in FM masses (Have seen Testament effectively run with 3x Zealots and 1x Idrians)
While I agree that Guardians is great for removing infantry, and being better at surviving that FM troops, there aren't too many pairings where I think it's a great drop, specifically because of the list dichotomy you described above.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 9, 2018 15:25:07 GMT
The issue is, in the current meta, most lists pairs are: List1: Heavies List2: Dudes Dang this thread blew up fast. Interesting thing I've noticed, especially recently: that first point of yours isn't necessarily true any more (and is actually part of the reason I shifted Kreoss3 away from double Vengers into Faithful Masses). Here's what I've been seeing: Cygnar: I play against 4 Centurions Kraye and 5x5 Sloan, so my opinions are warped. Everyone else, however, plays lists that Guardians plays well into. Cygnar 'jacks are pretty squishy, the Centurion notwithstanding, so Guardians has game. Khador: Occasionally I see a heavy spam list locally, but not as much any more. Though I am trying to convince my brother that Harkevich 8 'jacks is good... Protectorate: Most lists have shifted away from heavy spam, since our 'jacks are pretty slow. Cryx: Even when they run Slayer spam, they're still fragile. Any damage buff takes TFG into the realm of crippling them. Ret: Rarely runs 'jack spam. Even when they run Vyros2 spam, we still have game because their jacks are squishy. Mercs: Rarely runs armor spam. Trolls: Band of Heros all day, errday. So sick of this theme force... Sometimes has a Gargantuan centering the force. Circle: One of the only factions I truly see high ARM heavy spam in because Bones is really good. And Bones is good against us, so expect it. Skorne: Sometimes runs heavy spam. Typically it's double derp turtle. This is problematic, but there are still few Skorne players. Legion: Mixed arms, sometimes heavy spam but dragons are squishy. Minions: Mixed arms to infantry spam, rarely out and out heavy spam. Grymkin: The other faction I expect high ARM heavy spam in. However, they hate Grievous Wounds because it shuts down an Arcana.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 9, 2018 16:22:22 GMT
Hashmal I think its a meta thing, because khador at the tourneys I go to typically has 4+ heavies in almost every list. Cygnar is either: Haley gravediggers or some form of heavy metal, Mostly Nemo 3 double striders..seriously screw that guy. cryx is mostly jacks, but I think that is mostly a meta thing. I see a lot of combined arms mercs list, Lots of 4-5 jacks with 2 units and solos typically. Trolls, yeah, its typically PoD or some form of high arm, def skew madrack 1 brick. Skorne: never understood skorne popularity stuff. They are such a strong faction now. Minions: Almost every minions pair I see is some form of Blindwater and then a WWFF beast spam list. Arkadius runs like 6 heavies all the time. Another issue with minions, if even their heavy beast lists can mulch infantry...
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