Qrow
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by Qrow on Apr 8, 2018 9:11:29 GMT
Hello, I'm attending my first serious tournament in a few weeks and would like some critique of my lists to make sure I have not missed anything obvious. I am not massively experienced with competitive play, playing mostly casual matches over the years.
My pairing lists are:
Grymkin - The Wanderer
Theme: Bump in the Night
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
The Wanderer - WB: +28
- Skin & Moans - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15)
- Skin & Moans - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Crabbit - PC: 7
- Crabbit
Death Knell - PC: 13
Lord Longfellow - PC: 0
Witchwood - PC: 0
Witchwood - PC: 0
Murder Crows - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
Hollowmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
- Lantern Man - PC: 3
Hollowmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
- Lantern Man - PC: 3
Dread Rots - Leader & 9 Grunts: 12
I have used this list quite a few times at my local club and had good success with it. The only problems I have had is that, with only two proper warbeasts, losing either or both is a hard hit to take. The crabbits spend most of the time babysitting the S&Ms, wanderer plays forward with them while keeping fog of war and star crossed up most turns. Dread rots play centre with the death knell, as both corpse fuel and fodder pieces. The hollow men are either deployed on a flank each or both on one flank depending on the match up, use them mostly as CRA snipers and scoring pieces. Murder crows hopefully get a good ambush and take out/tie up a key unit or solo, while the witchwoods disrupt formations or contest objectives with stealth.
Grymkin - The Child
Theme: Dark Menagerie
5 / 5 Free Cards 73 / 75 Army
The Child - WB: +29
- Skin & Moans - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15)
- Skin & Moans - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Cage Rager - PC: 14
- Cage Rager - PC: 14
- Rattler - PC: 8
- Gorehound - PC: 6
- Gorehound - PC: 6
- Crabbit (Dark Menagerie) - PC: 0
Death Knell - PC: 13
Lady Karianna Rose - PC: 4
Gremlin Swarm - PC: 0
Gremlin Swarm - PC: 0
Gremlin Swarm - PC: 0
Gremlin Swarm - PC: 0
Dread Rots - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7
This is the list I'm more uncertain about and less experienced with, so I'm trying to get in as many games as possible and asking for advice. Dread rots are purely fuel for the dread knell, again playing the middle or wherever the highest concentration of beasts are. Cage ragers allow for arc noding abuse to beasts and can beat in their own right when needed, also help with free upkeeps. S&Ms target heavies once loaded, rattler destroys infantry lines and gorehounds are either discorded and ran to spellcasters or disrupt formations with their pull. The child uses the rattlers animus most turns and upkeeps tantrum, then uses abuse as needed. Gremlin swarms stay near beasts and remove focus as well as jamming potential charges somewhat.
Any advice on how to improve the lists would be great, especially with the child list. I'm pretty set on taking the Child and the Wanderer as my warlocks though, so I'm not too keen on swapping them out.
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Post by challenger on Apr 8, 2018 10:05:55 GMT
i think the first and most important question is what you expect to face at the tournament. Do you have any clue or are you expecting anything? Usually i'll begin thinking about a list pair in terms of very vague list archtypes like "guns" "weaponmaster spam" "scenario" "Brick" etc. Then i'll assess if i have good game into the things i can expect to see.
Your child list is basically a variation on the "poster child dark menagerie list" which is 4x heavies in a configuration of the users choosing, a knell, a minimum rots (who can score, contest, are weaponmasters, and otherwise become or collect corpses), and karianna + gremlins. The only suggestion i might say is to slot a glimmer imp in. Its the only non arcana MAT buff you'll get. I'm also not particularily a fan of gorehounds when rattlers exist but SPD9 gorehounds are certainly a thing. Generally i'll run between 2 and 4 crabbits as well as shield guards that cost 3.5 points and kill an infantry model a turn are decent.
as for advice on playing the child list - Force hammer is your friend for making scenario plays. Know where your heavies will be on each turn of the game before you even make it. You hit hard, and are pretty hard to attrition. Killing child is also very, very hard if you are in the middle of a brick, arm buffed, and with the crabbit animus up. Don't be afraid to send child in to clear infantry and sprint away either using gorehound animus! Play patient, and identify which is your important models.
I'm not very experienced with The Wanderer but i think the skin and moans + knell combo is a mistake in this theme. Its a very tempting trap. The problem being that the infantry don't benefit from the armor buffs (they do, but arm 12 --> arm 14 is not very good), and the knell is only enabling 2x heavies instead of 4-5 with the knell having very little (almost no) offensive output. its basically purely support. I personally like him in a menagerie brick. But at the same time, it might actually be good. i have not played it myself.
So to sum up:
what are you expecting, and does your 2 list pair there cover the match ups you need to be covered? If not, what changes can be made to cover it?
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Qrow
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by Qrow on Apr 8, 2018 12:46:12 GMT
Thank you for the feedback! I have played around with the death knell in the wanderer list for a while, and found that it's ability to load up a S&M with corpses early really useful. It can also be effective late game to allow S&Ms to death feast the corpses on them and heal up, then immediately be back up to full strength/armour. Though i do understand it may not be optimal and will play around with it more.
I tend to play The Child a little too defensively at higher points I think, but will try to play her up front more. I have used the gorehound animus before, but overlooked the crabbits on her, mainly using it for shenanigans on the Wanderer.
I'll try dropping a gorehound and adding a glimmer imp, I don't currently own one, but will have time to buy and paint one before the tournament.
As for what to expect at the tournament, I'm not actually sure. It's the first one I have attended since MK3 dropped and the first one I will compete be in personally. I do know that one of the people who regularly places high uses a cygnar double trencher long gunner list that people in my meta have often complained about. There is also a Makeda 2 double ferox list that I have played against before that was a major pain.
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Post by challenger on Apr 8, 2018 13:36:27 GMT
Thank you for the feedback! I have played around with the death knell in the wanderer list for a while, and found that it's ability to load up a S&M with corpses early really useful. It can also be effective late game to allow S&Ms to death feast the corpses on them and heal up, then immediately be back up to full strength/armour. Though i do understand it may not be optimal and will play around with it more. I tend to play The Child a little too defensively at higher points I think, but will try to play her up front more. I have used the gorehound animus before, but overlooked the crabbits on her, mainly using it for shenanigans on the Wanderer. I'll try dropping a gorehound and adding a glimmer imp, I don't currently own one, but will have time to buy and paint one before the tournament. As for what to expect at the tournament, I'm not actually sure. It's the first one I have attended since MK3 dropped and the first one I will compete be in personally. I do know that one of the people who regularly places high uses a cygnar double trencher long gunner list that people in my meta have often complained about. There is also a Makeda 2 double ferox list that I have played against before that was a major pain. Makeda2 is actually really easy for your child list to dismantle. Just take the accursed arcana and the game is over. Her lists are generally low on magic weapons meaning she can't get an edge on scenario thanks to gremlins. You get the luxury of playing the arcana, then applying glimmer imp to some ferox (making them effectively def 11) and then slaughtering the ferox wholesale. Child will easily kill a ferox per swing. No tough, no stay death, no problem. Hit on 3s with a glimmer imp too (!!) Assassination which makeda2 is pretty good at as a closing out the game option is pretty weak too when you have arcane vortex and are otherwise a 13/21 caster who can have dodge up. Notably +4 of that (after the first swing) comes from other buffs meaning Rhadeim and his armour piercing lance are not very impressive. Your armour gets halved to 9, then gets +4 meaning hes going to be at dice-1, at most dice+1 if hes the first guy to hit you in the turn. Also keep in mind for non arcana turns that Force Hammer is a thing that exists. Slamming makeda d6" away could put her outside stay death range of frontline ferox which just feels hoorrriiible for her. Overall - should be a fairly easy game for any dark menagerie list. As for the Cygnar list, what caster is running it? |
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Qrow
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by Qrow on Apr 8, 2018 14:58:19 GMT
I'm not 100% sure, but i think it's siege2 in gravedigger theme. I haven't faced it myself, but a few of the regulars from my local group have mentioned it as one of the lists to watch out for.
Thank you for the help again btw
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Qrow
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by Qrow on Apr 8, 2018 15:31:25 GMT
If i were to drop the knell from the wanderer list, do you think replacing it with a rattler is a good trade?
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Post by challenger on Apr 8, 2018 21:34:41 GMT
I'm not 100% sure, but i think it's siege2 in gravedigger theme. I haven't faced it myself, but a few of the regulars from my local group have mentioned it as one of the lists to watch out for. Thank you for the help again btw if you're still using 2x skin and moans and well practiced with the Wanderer list i'd probably say keep it the same even if it isn't what i'd run in particular. Usually my thinking is "Will i have a knell and corpses? yes? Okay bring more skin and moans" whereas if i say no, i bring more cage ragers. Ragers are slower and never hit the terrifying peaks of the skin and moans stats but they also are just are consistent. Now as for Siege, i dont think your Wanderer list would do that amazing. Fog of War helps but that sounds like Grave Diggers and what will most likely happen is you gain a turn of stealth through Shroud, lose a few models still if he has a patrol dog, and then he uses his feat to basically back his entire army up after gunning down your front line. RAT 7 trenchers (6 + veteran leaders) hit def 14 dread rots and hollowmen fairly easily unfortunately. All he has to do is not lose on scenario and he would take you apart turn by turn. Cautious advance really puts a damper on hollowmens experience against trenchers. your wanderer list also gets in a lot of deep trouble because of his Razor Wall upkeep that will deny dread rot charges and hollowman positioning. the strategy i would take in general is drop a menagerie beast brick and use crabbits + the sacrifice arcana to get up the board. Trenchers are kinda bad at shooting down heavies under that circumstances so that makes siege want to consider feating his army forwards 3" instead and charging with Fury. if he thinks you're going to force him off scenario. just big disclaimer if you are planning on using sacrifice make sure you shield guard express team shots. they have grievous wounds and deny the arcana. you can "pre wound" a crabbit too if you're brave and want one SG to definitely kill it. a good late game tactic once your army has crossed the board is to play accursed then send in rattlers. Tough can really make them upset. Thats where accursed is a strong late game counter punch if you can get 1-2 rattlers into infantry lines. when opponents are playing 30+ infantry sometimes clumping up becomes non optional. Especially if he wants to do fury charges into your heavies. Thankfully arm around 21 makes pow 14 charges scary, but not world ending scary. if he has low access to magic drop gremlin swarms in front of your army to block trencher landing spots too. Beware the trench busters if he has them. With or Without fury they will kill heavies by themselves. they are high priority targets and very often worth a force hammer just to knock them back (which will hurt trenchers behind him). getting its threat range down means you wont randomly just lose a heavy to him. especially if you use some screening. But hes always going to be a terror that your opponent has in grave diggers. Siege2 will be tough, its a game that i feel like needs some practice |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649 
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Post by demonic on Aug 15, 2018 19:37:48 GMT
just thought to add this as a Skorne player, Rhadiem, Storm Rager, and he's a weapon master. I've 1 shot clean Khador heavies with him on the charge. Anything cats within 8 or 9 inches of him also gain dodge and are already at def 13, and his lance is magical  You also won't be able to get much done by slamming Makeda, as the Cyclops Brute has Safeguard, reducing the slam distance by 3, negating knockdown, and also negates collateral damage. It only cost 1 fury so it should usually be up whenever she's close enough to be in danger. The list can also be customized to carry magical, but suffers a bit in overall damage output. ON THE BRIGHT SIDE! cats have issues hitting things above 12 def and need to combine whenever they are attempting to pounce you instead of charge. The list variations can be dismantled fairly easily by taking a turn to spread out damage across as many cats as possible, since she will only have around 3-4 stay deaths on top of tough. Take out the Willbreaker solos and they will even lose tough, making Mak2's game severely crippled. As far as the child is concerned, be careful with models that have annihilating gaze. Just like how heavies are weak against them, her str makes her a prime target to be shot to death from models like the Extoller Soulward, who takes a living model's current str (not base) and adds it to their base damage. |
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Post by challenger on Aug 15, 2018 23:40:13 GMT
just thought to add this as a Skorne player, Rhadiem, Storm Rager, and he's a weapon master. I've 1 shot clean Khador heavies with him on the charge. Anything cats within 8 or 9 inches of him also gain dodge and are already at def 13, and his lance is magical You also won't be able to get much done by slamming Makeda, as the Cyclops Brute has Safeguard, reducing the slam distance by 3, negating knockdown, and also negates collateral damage. It only cost 1 fury so it should usually be up whenever she's close enough to be in danger. The list can also be customized to carry magical, but suffers a bit in overall damage output. ON THE BRIGHT SIDE! cats have issues hitting things above 12 def and need to combine whenever they are attempting to pounce you instead of charge. The list variations can be dismantled fairly easily by taking a turn to spread out damage across as many cats as possible, since she will only have around 3-4 stay deaths on top of tough. Take out the Willbreaker solos and they will even lose tough, making Mak2's game severely crippled. As far as the child is concerned, be careful with models that have annihilating gaze. Just like how heavies are weak against them, her str makes her a prime target to be shot to death from models like the Extoller Soulward, who takes a living model's current str (not base) and adds it to their base damage. This is the most wrong thing i have ever read in my entire time on Lormahordes. Lets begin to dissect this terribly innacurate post: Tyrant Rhadeim is A) Not a Weaponmaster, and B) cannot one shot heavies on the charge. Can he nearly do it? yes. Dice+4 against a khador juggernaut means your max damage is a roll of 18 + 4 from being dice+4, meaning he caps out at 22 damage on the charge with a very unlikely roll. His impact attack can add up to 4 more damage since dice-8. That's a khador heavy though. So it is mathematically impossible to one shot a "clean khador heavy". but i guess it helps when you are cheating and playing rhadeim as a weaponmaster when he isn't. Grymkin heavies are actually tougher. a Cage Rager is dice+2 from rhadeim and his mount is at dice-9 instead of 8, meaning the maximum damage you could get is 23 with all sixes which is incredibly unlikely. If we talk average damage output, on average Rhadeim will do 12 damage then die with storm rager. Now lets talk about the Brutes animus - does it help makeda? yes it does, does every player run a brute? no they dont. its actually exceptionally rare to see Makeda2 with a brute. Its usually Molik + Krea. but you know what you do if you see her with one? you just don't bother slamming her, it doesn't change how awful the match up is for her. You don't need to care about taking out the willbreakers, you don't need to care about spreading damage around. you literally just apply death knell 5" aura of no healing or play accursed which has a really easy trigger and sweep her army off the table. Grymkin is unironically an extremely hard counter to Makeda2. As for extoller soulwards shooting child, thats what crabbits are for. assuming the soulwards ever even make it close enough to take shots at her. Grymkin has layered defensive tech that counters spells, makes guns not connect easily, and at the end of the day even three extollers all loaded on souls shooting child isn't actually going to kill her easily because under knell she goes to ARM 21 meaning she just shunts some damage via transfer and then the extollers who have come very close, die horribly. |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 16, 2018 2:36:48 GMT
fudge, forgot, that's my xerxis list x.O; I combine Stir the Blood with his feat -.- gotta get these things right, haven't been playing my kitty list in forever because easy kills means no practice. I did the math and it seems like I would of had to soften them up a bit and simply forgot due to the insane amount of damage it applied.
I tend to take out crabbits with an Efaarit Scout (yeah, I don't play a heavy magical list with my kitties), due to the mass repo. I can just keep shooting the child and having the transfers/shield guards kill them off if I can't get a good aim.
cats should be very well spread out, just enough to block charge lanes or keep enemies engaged, limiting how effective your deathknell is. This separation is the reason you should be running a shield guard with Mak2 and why the krea tends to be more popular than the agonizer. If an opponent like the deathknell exists, however, it is usually a major target for Molik and Rhadiem. I just wanted to mention the existence of this safeguard animus that heavily hinders the earlier idea posted about using slams to get cats outside of her stay death range.
Oh, and I really want it to be known, I never said that Grymkin didn't have insane game into the Crazy Cat Lady list; I only wanted to make sure you all knew that mak2 CAN be a threat if you allow her to be. TBH, I haven't really seen a clean cut counter to grymkin that hasn't been more of a straight up power play by our best players. Due to our lack of Grymkin players is the original reason I wanted to look into them and I ended up absolutely LOVING their design, both in look and play style. I even like the mad caps and how it summons cask imps. I can see them completely dominating the major factions in the game, though suffering against maybe jack spams. With enough crabbits you can shield guard/xfer to oblivion, living and undead models tend to be a breeze, and your ability to revive grunts gives you a perfect way to make it up the field. Only real base issue I see is the lack of cracking armor on construct heavies without the corpses to back it up (19 PS on skin and moans will rip a construct up real good x.x).
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You also won't be able to get much done by slamming Makeda, as the Cyclops Brute has Safeguard, reducing the slam distance by 3, negating knockdown, and also negates collateral damage. It only cost 1 fury so it should usually be up whenever she's close enough to be in danger. The list can also be customized to carry magical, but suffers a bit in overall damage output. ON THE BRIGHT SIDE! cats have issues hitting things above 12 def and need to combine whenever they are attempting to pounce you instead of charge. The list variations can be dismantled fairly easily by taking a turn to spread out damage across as many cats as possible, since she will only have around 3-4 stay deaths on top of tough. Take out the Willbreaker solos and they will even lose tough, making Mak2's game severely crippled.