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Post by flamigant on Apr 6, 2018 15:15:38 GMT
He was no way ball busting. his personal output is insane. These do not seem to match? I see what I did there, so all in all hes perfect No for real the spell list and EoM is in no way ball busting but his personal offensive output is insane. so that needs to be toned down. It was already suggested to take away oracular vision and replace mystic wards with vision for example, Owen are you on the PoM FB group? You should be
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Post by Gaston on Apr 6, 2018 15:29:37 GMT
I see what I did there, so all in all hes perfect No for real the spell list and EoM is in no way ball busting but his personal offensive output is insane. so that needs to be toned down. It was already suggested to take away oracular vision and replace mystic wards with vision for example, Owen are you on the PoM FB group? You should be I am a bit more cautious. I feel that he is very difficult to balance properly because of free points in theme. Universal, passive +1/+1 is a VERY large buff. Additionally, a 3" threat extender is no small thing for his personal warjack either. I would not support adding Vision to his spell list as it is moving his abilities even further outside his battlegroup. Making the journeymen "X on a stick" does not seem like a good, long term design. Unfortunately, I do not know any Owen.
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Post by flamigant on Apr 6, 2018 15:30:41 GMT
Are you not Gaston / Owen Schindel from Advanced manouvers?
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Post by Gaston on Apr 6, 2018 15:31:24 GMT
Are you not Gaston / Owen Schindel from Advanced manouvers? I am Gaston from Advanced Maneuvers...but I don't know any Owen Schindel?
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Post by flamigant on Apr 6, 2018 15:36:24 GMT
Are you not Gaston / Owen Schindel from Advanced manouvers? I am Gaston from Advanced Maneuvers...but I don't know any Owen Schindel? Somehow i always thougt your name was Owen lol excuse me www.patreon.com/gamingwiththecoolerAre you not this?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 6, 2018 15:44:23 GMT
Maybe they do match? The number of full fledged warcasters that CAN'T bring the pain when they burn everything for it and get in there is honestly a single digit, and considered a last resort in many cases(with good reason). The new juniors are the same in that burning them out for a melee offense is liable to become a piece trade with a VERY valuable piece.
If I'm going to burn 4 or 5 focus putting severius on the front lines, I'm going to expect to lose him in response OR win the game that same turn. If anything, given their general level of training, I'd expect similar amounts of "high burn" potential from every named junior.
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Post by paradox on Apr 6, 2018 15:47:20 GMT
He was no way ball busting. his personal output is insane. These do not seem to match? No one busts balls like Gaston.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Apr 6, 2018 15:55:43 GMT
This thread blew up so quickly I'm not going back and reading everything I have missed.
Has anyone talked about Sevvy0 with Amon? Seems really good, maybe overkill, but that little bump to help get the Synergy chain going seems important and too good to pass up. What are your thoughts on this?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 6, 2018 16:00:22 GMT
This thread blew up so quickly I'm not going back and reading everything I have missed. Has anyone talked about Sevvy0 with Amon? Seems really good, maybe overkill, but that little bump to help get the Synergy chain going seems important and too good to pass up. What are your thoughts on this? mixed. He's a power solo in a theme otherwise completely lacking in them, so you get him free and lose a single BG warjack for it. Would be OP if you could hand him a vigilant and still give the vigilant fortify, since that thing is not too important to the offense. OTOH, it's one or more jacks not connected to the synergy chain, getting parry, or getting mobility. This is a significant number of missed buffs. This one's a "test it" area IMO.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Apr 6, 2018 16:16:32 GMT
This thread blew up so quickly I'm not going back and reading everything I have missed. Has anyone talked about Sevvy0 with Amon? Seems really good, maybe overkill, but that little bump to help get the Synergy chain going seems important and too good to pass up. What are your thoughts on this? The thing is, he will most likely work well with anything - any caster, any army composition. EoM and personal prowess are extremely universal, especially when mixed&matched with other casters' abilities. For example with Kreoss1 as a Focus battery for double Redeemers and a damage booster. Or with a Dervish or two with Thyra, for surprising, long range, non-linear, accurate/POWerful attacks from him and his jacks.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 6, 2018 16:25:57 GMT
I definitely get wanting to be cautious, for sure. I have a couple of angles I'm approaching this from.
1.) Eye is definitely powerful. However, because of its 10" bubble, it is a little harder to safely apply on forward elements like Errants or Idrians. I know this from playing Sevy1 for years - they like getting out of his bubble. Now, a solo is not a Warcaster, but the experience is at least relevant.
2.) Eye is easier to apply on Warjacks, who used to have +2 to hit from Battle and still weren't dominating tournaments. I don't like this argument, because Mk. II balance =/= Mk. III balance, but it is a historical item that at least merits mentioning. Does the addition of Eye now take our Warjack ranged game over the top? I'll admit, my first response to seeing Eye was "No way that stays." But I kind of want it to. That leads me to...
3.) Frankly, I would like to see our faction get a powerful solo. This powerful? Well, it'd be nice but I think he's overtuned. But the lack of powerful, compelling solos has been a bugbear of the Protectorate since themes launched, especially in CM. And, for me, this has been a larger problem with the Protectorate going back to Mk. II. We had milquetoast release following bland release for years. Reznik2 when he launched? Panned. Even Gaston had to give up on him a bit (<3). Vindictus? Only made good in Mk. III. Judicator? I was one of the only ardent defenders of the Colossal I knew. Flame Bringers? I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who ran them well in Mk. II and it took the edition change to finally make them good. The poor Purifier still sees no play. The Revelator is almost dead on arrival - it is featured in very few lists. The Indictor became relevant in Mk. III because of the loss of the Battle hit. Thyra was fun for a minute, but really struggled.
I can go on. I honestly went years without buying a single new model because nothing compelling was released. I think PP has seen this problem, too. Mk. III has seen this start to turn around. The KE CA is expensive, but good. Elias Gade is actually pretty okay, though I think most bought him because we have a lot of Errants and he brings them back to what they used to be. The Champion of the Order of the Wall is frankly awesome and gorgeous and was the first model I have been really excited about in... 3 or 4 years? I appreciate this trend. I had hoped that the huge nerf the Choir suffered moving to Mk. III would be vindicated through the release of more powerful and compelling solos, units, and Warjacks. Thus far, two of the three have started to pan out.
Sevy0 looks too good. In all likelihood, he is too good. But how much? I don't know. I am going to test this and find out. I hope others do the same. Reading hyperbole regarding "busted interactions" with zero table time to back it up is depressing. I don't want us to lose power because of it. I am afraid of another Girded (maybe that should replace Oracular Vision). I think we are all cogent, intelligent, adult beings. I think we can all recognize that Sevy0, and all of the Journeymen, are powerful. I want to use testing, rather than Internet arguments, to find out how powerful and to determine what needs to be done.
P.S. Gaston's name is not Owen. Come back up Maryland way, Gaston; I miss your face.
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Post by Gaston on Apr 6, 2018 17:29:27 GMT
1.) Eye is definitely powerful. However, because of its 10" bubble, it is a little harder to safely apply on forward elements like Errants or Idrians. I know this from playing Sevy1 for years - they like getting out of his bubble. Now, a solo is not a Warcaster, but the experience is at least relevant. I moderately disagree with this. You may not get the edge guys, but I am pretty confident you can get the vast majority of the unit with a little practice. I also disagree with how squishy people seem to think Jrs. are, that has not been my experience at all by any stretch. Typically when I see -any- player lose a journeyman, it is well into the attrition/endgame or they made a positioning error. 2.) Eye is easier to apply on Warjacks, who used to have +2 to hit from Battle and still weren't dominating tournaments. I don't like this argument, because Mk. II balance =/= Mk. III balance, but it is a historical item that at least merits mentioning. Does the addition of Eye now take our Warjack ranged game over the top? I'll admit, my first response to seeing Eye was "No way that stays." But I kind of want it to. That leads me to... It does merit mentioning, but the counter argument was that the +2 to hit was limiting design space so now...you're +1/+3? Also, to equate him merely as a Mk2 Choir replacement is a pretty big disservice, which I see as a frequent argument. He has no limits and impacts damage as well. So perhaps the balance point is not Eye of Menoth but some manner of more limited buffing? 3.) Frankly, I would like to see our faction get a powerful solo. This powerful? Well, it'd be nice but I think he's overtuned. But the lack of powerful, compelling solos has been a bugbear of the Protectorate since themes launched, especially in CM. And, for me, this has been a larger problem with the Protectorate going back to Mk. II. We had milquetoast release following bland release for years. Reznik2 when he launched? Panned. Even Gaston had to give up on him a bit (<3). Vindictus? Only made good in Mk. III. Judicator? I was one of the only ardent defenders of the Colossal I knew. Flame Bringers? I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who ran them well in Mk. II and it took the edition change to finally make them good. The poor Purifier still sees no play. The Revelator is almost dead on arrival - it is featured in very few lists. The Indictor became relevant in Mk. III because of the loss of the Battle hit. Thyra was fun for a minute, but really struggled. I'd argue Mk2 Vindictus theme was very good and underappreciated, I played the shit outta that. We shall not speak of Reznik2. But the strength of Sevvy0 highlights a #designspace issue that PP has backed themselves into--all solos cost the same. Who can compete with Eye of Menoth? I think the word you hit exactly exactly on the head is COMPELLING. There is a huge lack of solos that are interesting or fun to play. The faction does indeed need more things that interact together, interact with your opponent in non-combative ways, such as control or positioning abilities. You could almost argue that Sevvy0 is overtuned and uncompelling when his Plan A is to just sit there on a toilet in the middle of your army. The irony is when they released Tristan Jr. the designer notes for him were "Choir is really good, so his job is to upkeep a spell". Sevy0 looks too good. In all likelihood, he is too good. But how much? I don't know. I am going to test this and find out. I hope others do the same. Reading hyperbole regarding "busted interactions" with zero table time to back it up is depressing. I don't want us to lose power because of it. I am afraid of another Girded (maybe that should replace Oracular Vision). I think we are all cogent, intelligent, adult beings. I think we can all recognize that Sevy0, and all of the Journeymen, are powerful. I want to use testing, rather than Internet arguments, to find out how powerful and to determine what needs to be done. Sevvy is not going to break the game. But his buffing is too overbroad for a solo due to the fact that his cost cannot be adjusted to match his abilities. Unfortunately I don't find him overly compelling either, just auto-include. P.S. Gaston's name is not Owen. Come back up Maryland way, Gaston; I miss your face. Miss you too, but Titan is sooooo faaaaaar...
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Post by Gaston on Apr 6, 2018 17:35:28 GMT
These do not seem to match? No one busts balls like Gaston. I gotta steam pickle with your name on it...
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Post by Gaston on Apr 6, 2018 17:36:33 GMT
I am Gaston from Advanced Maneuvers...but I don't know any Owen Schindel? Somehow i always thougt your name was Owen lol excuse me www.patreon.com/gamingwiththecoolerAre you not this? Sorry man, still not me. I actually don't like monetizing gaming content at all (and it is seldom worth the purchase). All of Advanced Maneuvers was done out of the pockets of the crew.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 6, 2018 17:45:07 GMT
I've been making my way down to VA more often. Was in Fairfax for the tourney last month.
I get where you're coming from and I think it is important to differentiate compelling from powerful. Eye is powerful, but you're right: it's boring. I find his spell list and personal output to be a heck of a lot more interesting. Although I used the phrase "eating a sandwich" over "sitting on the toilet," which will now become "sitting on the toilet eating a sandwich." This of course raises hygiene issues that will be rectified in a later CID cycle.
I personally would like to see his balance point focus more on Warjacks. He's a Journeyman Warcaster. Cygnar's Junior notwithstanding, *all* of the Journeymen, Warcasters and Warlocks alike, have focused on their battlegroups. I think this is a fine niche for him. Road to War is amazing on him, but only looks at his Battle Group. I like that and would not want it to leave. For the Zeros, it's pretty clear PP wants to provide Journeymen that affect more than just their own battlegroup. Perhaps Eye could be tweaked to something like Divine Vessel, is a * action, and only affects Warjacks in control. Gives him that table presence they want to see from the Zeros, but limits his scope and restricts his abilities.
I also agree with the free points design issue you have. I have had a similar one. Points still do matter when you've filled up your free points allotment, but only when they're cheap. And comparing Sevy0 to an Errant Seneschal when considering free options seems like a one second decision, unless you've really got a love for back flags. That's a kettle of fish I'm not sure they're ready to cook yet, though, so I'm steering clear of it.
Competitive considerations aside, my biggest problem with all the Zero Journeymen is that they bring almost auto-include abilities on time paradox characters. What remains of the lore fan in me is shriveling up at the thought of this. I really wish they had brought out these exact models, but kind of as the next generation of leaders, not call backs to an earlier time. Having Tristan1 and Sevy0 with Kreoss1 in the same list is making a little bit of my soul ache.
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